What on Earth is going on in the world today? It's gone mad

[Federberg]

The issue is, Israel does exist on stolen land though, and the whole concept predates holocaust guilt and the holocaust itself. The decision to colonize Palestine took place in 1917 in the Balfour Declaration. Then of course came the Nakba of 1948 where nearly a million Palestinians were expelled, 400 villages were destroyed, and countless massacres took place (with Israeli settlers/soldiers on video in interviews talking in great detail about the atrocities they committed, and proudly of course). This is the history of how Israel came to be.

The other problem is, they haven't stopped since. They've been gradually expanding and suffocating Palestinians since, with increasingly brutal measures. I know it's hard for a many people in the West to come to terms with that but unfortunately, there is no conspiracy here. This is how Israel was created.

The even bigger problem is that those measures are not some Netanyahu specific policies. This is literally what Zionist ideology is. Just listen to any far right Israeli minister speak, or really just the general population...that is what that country is.

Yes I know. The British Empire is responsible for so many of the problems that exist in the world today. They made decisions that favoured their own interests, unfortunately there was no consideration for longer term stability. You see it in Africa, where ethnic groups were forced together to optimise British economic interests. But it was more than that, they actively promoted a divide and rule method to control the populations, to this day rivalries exist, as a result, that didn't need to. That's not an excuse for the parlous state of under-development in Africa, but it's an explanation. What I'm trying to say is that injustices exist, often caused by outsiders and it's up to us as a human civilisation to find a solution now. None of us, no nation now, can use what happened in the past as a basis to justify permanent conflict. But that doesn't mean that Israeli expansionism shouldn't be checked right now. This is the frustration because often this is quietly ignored, and I agree with you.

By the way, this is not exclusive to the long passed British Empire. America has been doing it since the aftermath of World War 2. They have destroyed democracies in the Western Hemisphere to promote American corporate interests, same thing in the Middle East, the British and Americans (possibly also the French although I forget) destabilised Iran and brought the Shah to power, and we're all paying the price for that now. Imagine what Iran would have been like if they had been allowed to flourish since the 1950s? Or I could talk about the aftermath of the Arab Spring when Egypt overthrew Mubarak. Didn't the Muslim Brotherhood win the elections thereafter? America didn't like that. Democracy it seems is only a good thing when it elects leaders, political parties that aren't a threat to American or Israeli interests. We all know it, we see it

Yes, you are absolutely correct, but what can we do? We can't force the state of Israel not to exist now. Give the land back to the displaced Palestinians. It's simply not practical. The question is, what can be done now to secure a peace going in to the future. This is not an excuse, it is not support for what was done. It is pragmatic, it is realistic, it doesn't taste good

 

[brokenshoelace]

Yes I know. The British Empire is responsible for so many of the problems that exist in the world today. They made decisions that favoured their own interests, unfortunately there was no consideration for longer term stability. You see it in Africa, where ethnic groups were forced together to optimise British economic interests. But it was more than that, they actively promoted a divide and rule method to control the populations, to this day rivalries exist, as a result, that didn't need to. That's not an excuse for the parlous state of under-development in Africa, but it's an explanation. What I'm trying to say is that injustices exist, often caused by outsiders and it's up to us as a human civilisation to find a solution now. None of us, no nation now, can use what happened in the past as a basis to justify permanent conflict. But that doesn't mean that Israeli expansionism shouldn't be checked right now. This is the frustration because often this is quietly ignored, and I agree with you.

By the way, this is not exclusive to the long passed British Empire. America has been doing it since the aftermath of World War 2. They have destroyed democracies in the Western Hemisphere to promote American corporate interests, same thing in the Middle East, the British and Americans (possibly also the French although I forget) destabilised Iran and brought the Shah to power, and we're all paying the price for that now. Imagine what Iran would have been like if they had been allowed to flourish since the 1950s? Or I could talk about the aftermath of the Arab Spring when Egypt overthrew Mubarak. Didn't the Muslim Brotherhood win the elections thereafter? America didn't like that. Democracy it seems is only a good thing when it elects leaders, political parties that aren't a threat to American or Israeli interests. We all know it, we see it

Yes, you are absolutely correct, but what can we do? We can't force the state of Israel not to exist now. Give the land back to the displaced Palestinians. It's simply not practical. The question is, what can be done now to secure a peace going in to the future. This is not an excuse, it is not support for what was done. It is pragmatic, it is realistic, it doesn't taste good

I agree with the above but I think what every critic of Israel is asking for is accountability. Their prime minister is literally a convicted war criminal, yet the genocide in Gaza is allowed to persist, protected and funded by the leaders of so called free world. Illegal settlements in the West Bank continue to expand at the expense of Palestinians who continue to lose their homes, lives and livelihood. Lebanon is getting destroyed and ethnically cleansed, and Iran has suffered an unprovoked attack. That is a A LOT for one country to be doing unchecked. So we can debate if Israel has a right to exist, but it exists, and since it does, it must bear the consequences of its actions.

 

[Federberg]

I agree with the above but I think what every critic of Israel is asking for is accountability. Their prime minister is literally a convicted war criminal, yet the genocide in Gaza is allowed to persist, protected and funded by the leaders of so called free world. Illegal settlements in the West Bank continue to expand at the expense of Palestinians who continue to lose their homes, lives and livelihood. Lebanon is getting destroyed and ethnically cleansed, and Iran has suffered an unprovoked attack. That is a A LOT for one country to be doing unchecked. So we can debate if Israel has a right to exist, but it exists, and since it does, it must bear the consequences of its actions.

we're seeing progress on this front. Many countries in Europe have now declared that a Palestinian state needs to exist. It'll take a long time for America to get to that point. They might never, but the younger demographic on both the left and right in America seems to be looking at Israel with a more critical eye. It's not enough, it's not quick enough. But.. and this is the fatal error I think Bibi has made... I think any future Administration will be far more cautious with their support for Israel. I still haven't worked out what that means but I don't think the US-Israel relationship will ever be the same again, even if they deny it. It would happen a lot quicker but AIPAC is more powerful that the NRA