NBA (whenever)...

[Federberg]

If LeBron didn’t crave that last moment he wouldn’t have far more playoff game winning buzzer beaters than anyone in history. He also buried the Spurs in game 7 with a game ending jumper with less than a minute to go, and that was after scoring 17 in the 4th qtr of the game 6 comeback. Check out what he did to the Pistons in 2007 game 5 as a 22 year old, etc.

And dominating games while facing elimination is certainly part of being clutch. Won his last six game 7’s averaging over 35 points, stole the Celtics’ soul in 2012 game 6, destroyed GSW after being down 3-1, including the most clutch defensive play in history. He has rallied multiple times from a 2-0 hole, etc. This stuff is just pure hatred bro. In no universe am I trusting those guys over LeBron if we are talking all-time. Maybe now you’d have a case as he has struggled more in the 4th quarter of recent playoff runs.

you see this doesn't work. You need to go by percentages not absolute numbers. Of course he has a higher number he's played twice as many playoff games as most other folks

 

[Federberg]

Joel is not built like a natural basketball player.. his lower core (tree trunk legs up to his waist is huge) He is always gonna be prone for injury like Zion..

I agree. I'm just saying.. if the news it true and he actually is fit, then load managing him this year might be everything

 

[Federberg]

by the way, I think KD was insane with his comparisons of the 76ers and the 2017 Warriors. Is he really trying to absolve himself of joining a 73-9 team by throwing both LeBron and Klay under the bus?? Shameful!

 

[DarthFed]

you see this doesn't work. You need to go by percentages not absolute numbers. Of course he has a higher number he's played twice as many playoff games as most other folks

You can go off anything you like, and comparing LeBron as a playoff performer isn’t really going in anyone’s favor aside from MJ. The percentages say he’s pretty damn clutch overall. I mentioned a few weeks back about comparing him to Kobe in game 7’s, close out games, and games facing elimination. You won’t hear about that one much, same with Kobe blowing a 3-1 lead against Phoenix and quitting in the 2nd half of game 7.

I get 4-6 in the Finals is bad but his team was also the underdog in 6 or 7 of those finals, which pokes a gigantic hole in the narrative of him being on great teams his whole career. LeBron was arguably the best player on the floor in 2 or 3 of those finals he lost. It’s all just hatred because the guy is who he is. If MJ didn’t exist and LeBron didn’t talk politics there would be about 90% less hate. Ultimately, those who watched MJ know there isn’t a real comparison. The media of course just eats this up. Skip Bayless is a waste of DNA and he will bring up LeBron non stop like a scorned lover

 

[Federberg]

You can go off anything you like, and comparing LeBron as a playoff performer isn’t really going in anyone’s favor aside from MJ. The percentages say he’s pretty damn clutch overall. I mentioned a few weeks back about comparing him to Kobe in game 7’s, close out games, and games facing elimination. You won’t hear about that one much, same with Kobe blowing a 3-1 lead against Phoenix and quitting in the 2nd half of game 7.

I get 4-6 in the Finals is bad but his team was also the underdog in 6 or 7 of those finals, which pokes a gigantic hole in the narrative of him being on great teams his whole career. LeBron was arguably the best player on the floor in 2 or 3 of those finals he lost. It’s all just hatred because the guy is who he is. If MJ didn’t exist and LeBron didn’t talk politics there would be about 90% less hate. Ultimately, those who watched MJ know there isn’t a real comparison. The media of course just eats this up. Skip Bayless is a waste of DNA and he will bring up LeBron non stop like a scorned lover

I agree with most of that. I don't pay much attention to his politics to be honest. It's the campaigning to be called the GOAT that gets on my last nerve. Which of the finals do you consider his team to have been an underdog apart from in '17 and '18? I think in the rest they were at least evenly matched. I don't agree they were an underdog in '16. Everyone wants to forget it now, but Steph was not fully fit. That's not a defence against the loss, it's a rejection of the idea the Cavs were an underdog.

I don't know why people talk about him being the best player on the floor in losing finals, to me that's just a narrative used to defend him by his operatives. I mean.. so what?? One could easily say the same about Wemby this year or even Steph in 2019. It doesn't matter, they lost. I have no mercy for that. I don't know any other star where that's even brought up. It's utterly meaningless to me and if anything makes me loathe the guy more

 

[DarthFed]

I agree with most of that. I don't pay much attention to his politics to be honest. It's the campaigning to be called the GOAT that gets on my last nerve. Which of the finals do you consider his team to have been an underdog apart from in '17 and '18? I think in the rest they were at least evenly matched. I don't agree they were an underdog in '16. Everyone wants to forget it now, but Steph was not fully fit. That's not a defence against the loss, it's a rejection of the idea the Cavs were an underdog.

I don't know why people talk about him being the best player on the floor in losing finals, to me that's just a narrative used to defend him by his operatives. I mean.. so what?? One could easily say the same about Wemby this year or even Steph in 2019. It doesn't matter, they lost. I have no mercy for that. I don't know any other star where that's even brought up. It's utterly meaningless to me and if anything makes me loathe the guy more

The Cavs were heavy underdogs in 2007 against the Spurs, no surprise there. And then were considered heavy underdogs all 4 years against the Warriors with 2016 being the closest. 2015, 2017, and 2018 are clearly not close. The Heat were also slight Vegas underdogs going into 2012 finals vs OKC (llaughable IMO) as well as 2014 vs the Spurs which was reasonable.

And dude, you’re smart, so I think you know why someone would bring up the point that LeBron performed well in many of the finals he lost. He sucked in 2007 which was understandable, and then choked hard in 2011 which is definitely his greatest career failure. Aside from that he has mostly been great, even in defeat. He just hasn’t been Mike, obviously 2011 happened and then even one like 2014 where it should have been close on paper.

 

[Federberg]

The Cavs were heavy underdogs in 2007 against the Spurs, no surprise there. And then were considered heavy underdogs all 4 years against the Warriors with 2016 being the closest. 2015, 2017, and 2018 are clearly not close. The Heat were also slight Vegas underdogs going into 2012 finals vs OKC (llaughable IMO) as well as 2014 vs the Spurs which was reasonable.

And dude, you’re smart, so I think you know why someone would bring up the point that LeBron performed well in many of the finals he lost. He sucked in 2007 which was understandable, and then choked hard in 2011 which is definitely his greatest career failure. Aside from that he has mostly been great, even in defeat. He just hasn’t been Mike, obviously 2011 happened and then even one like 2014 where it should have been close on paper.

I forgot about 2007, I'll concede that one

They might have been considered favourites after Kyrie and KLove got injured in 2015, but if you're using the fact that the Warriors won 67 regular season games, then I'll point to this years finals. Yes we can say that the Spurs were "favourites" but everyone was aware of the match up, are we seriously going to say that the Knicks winning was that much of a surprise? Yes I personally thought that Wemby would find a way, but I wasn't exactly shocked. That's even more the case in 2015 because the so called king was playing against a team that hadn't sniffed a championship in years. By the way it's funny how Steph being injured, Draymond being suspended and Bogut getting injured and Iggy also, doesn't change the narrative about that Cavs win being an all time great thing. If it was the other way around everyone would be saying the Warriors are the luckiest team ever

And yes, I know exactly why folks bring up LeBron being the best player on the floor. It's funny because in 2022 if the Warriors had lost it would have confirmed the narrative that was going around that Steph need injuries or a KD to win. But he was HIM and did his business. And he didn't need NBA officials to suspend any Celtics players, no one got injured etc etc etc... There's always a narrative defending LeLoser. And yes I admit it I'm a hater. I loathe the manufactured narrative. I know you know he's not the one, but I confess it gets my hackles up when the usual narratives are brought up to bolster this guy with a 4 - 6 record in finals. Not 5 - 5, not 6 - 4. NOT goat things

 

[DarthFed]

I forgot about 2007, I'll concede that one

They might have been considered favourites after Kyrie and KLove got injured in 2015, but if you're using the fact that the Warriors won 67 regular season games, then I'll point to this years finals. Yes we can say that the Spurs were "favourites" but everyone was aware of the match up, are we seriously going to say that the Knicks winning was that much of a surprise? Yes I personally thought that Wemby would find a way, but I wasn't exactly shocked. That's even more the case in 2015 because the so called king was playing against a team that hadn't sniffed a championship in years. By the way it's funny how Steph being injured, Draymond being suspended and Bogut getting injured and Iggy also, doesn't change the narrative about that Cavs win being an all time great thing. If it was the other way around everyone would be saying the Warriors are the luckiest team ever

And yes, I know exactly why folks bring up LeBron being the best player on the floor. It's funny because in 2022 if the Warriors had lost it would have confirmed the narrative that was going around that Steph need injuries or a KD to win. But he was HIM and did his business. And he didn't need NBA officials to suspend any Celtics players, no one got injured etc etc etc... There's always a narrative defending LeLoser. And yes I admit it I'm a hater. I loathe the manufactured narrative. I know you know he's not the one, but I confess it gets my hackles up when the usual narratives are brought up to bolster this guy with a 4 - 6 record in finals. Not 5 - 5, not 6 - 4. NOT goat things

Love was already knocked out of the playoffs coming into the finals and then Kyrie was hurt and only played game 1. This left LeBron with a team of scrubs that would have problems winning a YMCA pickup game. So GSW was heavy favorites before game 1 and then it was considered a slam dunk after that game when Kyrie got hurt. Curry and Igodaula may have been banged up in the 2016 finals, but that’s a far cry from Kyrie and Love being our which left the Kardashian as the Cavs next best player.

It’s ok to be a hater but got to have self-awareness about it too Yes, winning against the 73-9 Warriors team is always going to be more impressive than any of Curry’s wins, even though 2022 was extremely impressive. LeBron is the last athlete that gets a pass for anything, it’s the other way around where all his achievements are minimized, and you have a large percentage of people legitimately acting like the guy sucks. How many posts on social media have you seen where you have people putting him outside the top 10 and trying to defend it? I always say if he’s ranked 6-10 you’re a big hater, below that I can’t even take it seriously.

 

[Federberg]

Love was already knocked out of the playoffs coming into the finals and then Kyrie was hurt and only played game 1. This left LeBron with a team of scrubs that would have problems winning a YMCA pickup game. So GSW was heavy favorites before game 1 and then it was considered a slam dunk after that game when Kyrie got hurt. Curry and Igodaula may have been banged up in the 2016 finals, but that’s a far cry from Kyrie and Love being our which left the Kardashian as the Cavs next best player.

It’s ok to be a hater but got to have self-awareness about it too Yes, winning against the 73-9 Warriors team is always going to be more impressive than any of Curry’s wins, even though 2022 was extremely impressive. LeBron is the last athlete that gets a pass for anything, it’s the other way around where all his achievements are minimized, and you have a large percentage of people legitimately acting like the guy sucks. How many posts on social media have you seen where you have people putting him outside the top 10 and trying to defend it? I always say if he’s ranked 6-10 you’re a big hater, below that I can’t even take it seriously.

I'm a hater but I certainly don't put him out of the top 10, I agree that would be ridiculous. But MJ, Kobe, Kareem I put in a tier above him. I think of LeBron being in the same tier as Magic, Duncan and Bird. And I don't see that as a bad thing. I will state frankly that he's had the best career of any basketball player in history and I don't think it's close

As an aside, I find it hilarious how the same folks who say that Kevin Love wasn't significant to claim that Cavs team wasn't a super team will in the same breathe say that his being injured was significant. The logic has never logicked to me. But then I'm dumb as heck! And that's not directed at you. You have sense. You know who the real tennis GOAT is, so you're good in my books. I'm just trying to get the Klutch mist out of your sight line. I'm doing god's work here

 

[DarthFed]

I'm a hater but I certainly don't put him out of the top 10, I agree that would be ridiculous. But MJ, Kobe, Kareem I put in a tier above him. I think of LeBron being in the same tier as Magic, Duncan and Bird. And I don't see that as a bad thing. I will state frankly that he's had the best career of any basketball player in history and I don't think it's close

As an aside, I find it hilarious how the same folks who say that Kevin Love wasn't significant to claim that Cavs team wasn't wasn't a super team will in the same breathe say that his being injured was significant. The logic has never logicked to me. But then I'm dumb as heck! And that's not directed at you. You have sense. You know who the real tennis GOAT is, so you're good in my books. I'm just trying to get the Klutch mist out of your sight line. I'm doing god's work here

I agree with a lot of this. I don’t ever think Love was truly a superstar but obviously at his best he was still a very good player and him being out was going to have an impact. He definitely was a good #3 option and those Cav teams until 2018 were good.

I think Jordan is in his own tier. I just don’t think it’s really close. I then have Kareem, Magic and LeBron in the next tier, then Wilt, Duncan, Russell, Bird, Kobe, Shaq, Dream and Curry in the next one. I get that’s a big tier but they are all fairly close though I’d probably have Dream last of all those listed.

I also hear you about LeBron/Klutch. Bron is a very intelligent and calculated individual. I think even he realizes that his career does not measure up to MJ, and he just tries his best to speak it into existence. He knows the power of controlling the narrative as does his homeboy Rich Paul. It’s getting more and more insufferable especially when you have bozos like Skip and Windhorst that are going to eat it up and talk non-stop about him and things he says and does 365 days a year

 

[Federberg]

I agree with a lot of this. I don’t ever think Love was truly a superstar but obviously at his best he was still a very good player and him being out was going to have an impact. He definitely was a good #3 option and those Cav teams until 2018 were good.

I think Jordan is in his own tier. I just don’t think it’s really close. I then have Kareem, Magic and LeBron in the next tier, then Wilt, Duncan, Russell, Bird, Kobe, Shaq, Dream and Curry in the next one. I get that’s a big tier but they are all fairly close though I’d probably have Dream last of all those listed.

I also hear you about LeBron/Klutch. Bron is a very intelligent and calculated individual. I think even he realizes that his career does not measure up to MJ, and he just tries his best to speak it into existence. He knows the power of controlling the narrative as does his homeboy Rich Paul. It’s getting more and more insufferable especially when you have bozos like Skip and Windhorst that are going to eat it up and talk non-stop about him and things he says and does 365 days a year

I'm not mad at your tiers. I'll give it some more thought to try to truly categorise the top top players.

I agree, MJ is in a class of his own. So maybe more accurate to say...

MJ

Kobe, Kareem (Kobe for the skill, the two way, the competition); (Kareem because no one has done it like him in College and the league)

Magic, Bird, Duncan, Steph, Russell (I personally think it's unfair to separate Bird from Magic, when Magic had Kareem)

Shaq, Dream, Wilt (the two most dominant individuals of all time, and the best defender of all time)

 

[Federberg]

@DarthFed have you seen this? He's normally fairly balanced..

 

[the AntiPusher]

@DarthFed have you seen this? He's normally fairly balanced..

Sorry I know this was intended for Darth.. I am only gonna hijack this post briefly. This is why he is affectionally know as Slick Rick. Rick is brutely honest with his assessments and even though its widely known he doesn't feel Lebron is close to be the GOAT, Rick is spot on with this analysis.

 

[Federberg]

Sorry I know this was intended for Darth.. I am only gonna hijack this post briefly. This is why he is affectionally know as Slick Rick. Rick is brutely honest with his assessments and even though its widely known he doesn't feel Lebron is close to be the GOAT, Rick is spot on with this analysis.

I thought it was pretty spot on too! His assessment of the 2015 final was balanced too. I still shake my head that Steph didn't get FMVP. He's right, if you want to give it to anyone else apart from Steph it should have been Steve Kerr!

 

[DarthFed]

@DarthFed have you seen this? He's normally fairly balanced..

I’d say that’s very spot on. Though once you recognize that a big part of it is how polarizing he is, and that you have a large % of people invested in seeing him fail for almost 25 years now, you do have to question how much of it is avoidable at this point.

LeBron is certainly a greater player than guys like Shaq and KD, two players that also changed teams multiple times. But that difference in greatness is not remotely proportional to the amount of attention he gets for switching teams and that’s without LeBron ever requesting a trade. And that’s the hatred aspect of it. And of course people/news organizations are going to do whatever it takes to get the most clicks…I don’t follow many sports but I highly doubt there is any other athlete that will generate the same level of attention regardless of what we are talking about (changing teams, general comments, etc).

 

[DarthFed]

And just to be clear the above comment is about his take on LeBron being polarizing. Clearly his analysis on the 2015 finals is off base. LeBron was the best player that series but was very inefficient, which is not the norm for him. So yes, his scoring stats are very misleading since he had to take a ton of shots and was inefficient. But you can’t be considered balanced if you don’t point out what LeBron was working with in that series, as well as 2007 and 2018. That series had no business even going to 5 games after Kyrie went down.

And anyone that says “I didn’t plan on talking about LeBron today” is going to be a big hater. Let’s call a spade a spade lol

 

[Federberg]

I’d say that’s very spot on. Though once you recognize that a big part of it is how polarizing he is, and that you have a large % of people invested in seeing him fail for almost 25 years now, you do have to question how much of it is avoidable at this point.

LeBron is certainly a greater player than guys like Shaq and KD, two players that also changed teams multiple times. But that difference in greatness is not remotely proportional to the amount of attention he gets for switching teams and that’s without LeBron ever requesting a trade. And that’s the hatred aspect of it. And of course people/news organizations are going to do whatever it takes to get the most clicks…I don’t follow many sports but I highly doubt there is any other athlete that will generate the same level of attention regardless of what we are talking about (changing teams, general comments, etc).

hmmm... he hasn't requested trades because he always waits for his contracts to run down. But why does that matter anyway? By the way I've always respected the way he does that. Not like KD or Harden asking out. I think his team hopping is the least of the things that people have issues with to be honest. Maybe I'm wrong? But I really think the bulk of it is the fake goat narrative and throwing team mates and coaches under the bus. It just rubs people the wrong way

I appreciate that you're on that side of the pond, so I'll just smile about no other athletes generating as much interest. If you want to go by numbers I don't think LeBron has ever been in the top 5 globally. That's just an endearing American conceit. There are football stars and cricketers that engage with numbers in the billions. For example I don't think he's comparable to CR7 or Messi in terms of interest.

 

[DarthFed]

hmmm... he hasn't requested trades because he always waits for his contracts to run down. But why does that matter anyway? By the way I've always respected the way he does that. Not like KD or Harden asking out. I think his team hopping is the least of the things that people have issues with to be honest. Maybe I'm wrong? But I really think the bulk of it is the fake goat narrative and throwing team mates and coaches under the bus. It just rubs people the wrong way

I appreciate that you're on that side of the pond, so I'll just smile about no other athletes generating as much interest. If you want to go by numbers I don't think LeBron has ever been in the top 5 globally. That's just an endearing American conceit. There are football stars and cricketers that engage with numbers in the billions. For example I don't think he's comparable to CR7 or Messi in terms of interest.

Oh the team hopping is the biggest thing at least over here. And then it’s likely politics. I have many conservative friends that will say they no longer watch the NBA because of the kneeling and political statements in 2020. And then unprompted will just say they hate LeBron as they see him as the biggest symbol of it. So you have 50% of the country that hates him based on that alone. Ultimately there is a healthy % of people that don’t like him for many reasons. Some of that is due to the comparisons to Jordan going back 10-15 years ago already, but it goes way beyond that.

I will admit I’m not going to be as familiar on the other sports including soccer, which globally is way more popular than basketball of course. Just wasn’t sure if there is much controversy around Messi and/or other athletes or it’s just a matter of GOAT conversations being so big that it is beyond anything LeBron-related. As far as things in the States, the volume of articles and posts on him, the average number of clicks, comments, TV time etc is more on LeBron by about tenfold compared to any other athlete I can think of. You’d think LeBron is OJ at this point.

 

[Federberg]

Oh the team hopping is the biggest thing at least over here. And then it’s likely politics. I have many conservative friends that will say they no longer watch the NBA because of the kneeling and political statements in 2020. And then unprompted will just say they hate LeBron as they see him as the biggest symbol of it. So you have 50% of the country that hates him based on that alone. Ultimately there is a healthy % of people that don’t like him for many reasons. Some of that is due to the comparisons to Jordan going back 10-15 years ago already, but it goes way beyond that.

I will admit I’m not going to be as familiar on the other sports including soccer, which globally is way more popular than basketball of course. Just wasn’t sure if there is much controversy around Messi and/or other athletes or it’s just a matter of GOAT conversations being so big that it is beyond anything LeBron-related. As far as things in the States, the volume of articles and posts on him, the average number of clicks, comments, TV time etc is more on LeBron by about tenfold compared to any other athlete I can think of. You’d think LeBron is OJ at this point.

I hear you.

It's interesting you say that about the politics. To my mind, Steph has stuck his neck out more than LeBron at least when it comes to Presidential elections, but I don't get the impression he gets as much hate as LeBron. I hear exasperation from even some Republican leaning Warriors fans, but it's always like.. "sigh! I wish Steph would get a clue about those crazy Dems, but..."

Oh there are GOAT conversations in football that make the MJ-Jordan ones pale in comparison. And it's even more stupid because there are the kids who are fighting about whether it's Messi or if it's CR7. Now let me just state here CR7 doesn't sniff the GOAT debate in my opinion, it's absurd. The GOATs are Pele, Maradona and I guess I have to concede Messi is in the club. But if you watched even a little bit of the World Cup you would have seen some fairly blatant institutional support for Messi, so much so that they managed to cheat Argentina into the final when they should clearly have lost to Egypt. But even worse than that, there's another guy.. the real Ronaldo - a Brazilian, commonly referred to as R9 (different from CR7, Cristiano Ronaldo). He along with Maradona are in my opinion the two best footballers I've watched in my life time, he just had awful injuries and liked to party a bit (Pele is from an older generation he started in the 50s but was ahead of his time). The whole thing is crazy, but I'm sure if you went on to Reddit you would see a raging storm as vicious as the red spot on Jupiter. Basically what I'm saying is that there's madness around the world it's not just in basketball

 

[DarthFed]

I hear you.

It's interesting you say that about the politics. To my mind, Steph has stuck his neck out more than LeBron at least when it comes to Presidential elections, but I don't get the impression he gets as much hate as LeBron. I hear exasperation from even some Republican leaning Warriors fans, but it's always like.. "sigh! I wish Steph would get a clue about those crazy Dems, but..."

Oh there are GOAT conversations in football that make the MJ-Jordan ones pale in comparison. And it's even more stupid because there are the kids who are fighting about whether it's Messi or if it's CR7. Now let me just state here CR7 doesn't sniff the GOAT debate in my opinion, it's absurd. The GOATs are Pele, Maradona and I guess I have to concede Messi is in the club. But if you watched even a little bit of the World Cup you would have seen some fairly blatant institutional support for Messi, so much so that they managed to cheat Argentina into the final when they should clearly have lost to Egypt. But even worse than that, there's another guy.. the real Ronaldo - a Brazilian, commonly referred to as R9 (different from CR7, Cristiano Ronaldo). He along with Maradona are in my opinion the two best footballers I've watched in my life time, he just had awful injuries and liked to party a bit (Pele is from an older generation he started in the 50s but was ahead of his time). The whole thing is crazy, but I'm sure if you went on to Reddit you would see a raging storm as vicious as the red spot on Jupiter. Basically what I'm saying is that there's madness around the world it's not just in basketball

Hmm I may be remembering wrong but I dont remember Steph saying much politically. I know he declined a visit to the White House and Trump predictably insulted him and then LeBron went after Trump in defense of Steph. LeBron has made other comments on Trump and then was outspoken about a couple questionable police shootings around the time of the Bubble. He also posted a pic of one of the cops on social media and said “you’re next”. And to make matters worse for him he totally jumped the gun on one of the police shootings which ended up being completely justified (Jacob Blake).

So there was quite a lot. I personally thought it was hilarious that the US team was calling him Captain America at the last Olympics. Oh man did that piss off a lot of people