NBA (whenever)...

[Federberg]

If LeBron didn’t crave that last moment he wouldn’t have far more playoff game winning buzzer beaters than anyone in history. He also buried the Spurs in game 7 with a game ending jumper with less than a minute to go, and that was after scoring 17 in the 4th qtr of the game 6 comeback. Check out what he did to the Pistons in 2007 game 5 as a 22 year old, etc.

And dominating games while facing elimination is certainly part of being clutch. Won his last six game 7’s averaging over 35 points, stole the Celtics’ soul in 2012 game 6, destroyed GSW after being down 3-1, including the most clutch defensive play in history. He has rallied multiple times from a 2-0 hole, etc. This stuff is just pure hatred bro. In no universe am I trusting those guys over LeBron if we are talking all-time. Maybe now you’d have a case as he has struggled more in the 4th quarter of recent playoff runs.

you see this doesn't work. You need to go by percentages not absolute numbers. Of course he has a higher number he's played twice as many playoff games as most other folks

 

[Federberg]

Joel is not built like a natural basketball player.. his lower core (tree trunk legs up to his waist is huge) He is always gonna be prone for injury like Zion..

I agree. I'm just saying.. if the news it true and he actually is fit, then load managing him this year might be everything

 

[Federberg]

by the way, I think KD was insane with his comparisons of the 76ers and the 2017 Warriors. Is he really trying to absolve himself of joining a 73-9 team by throwing both LeBron and Klay under the bus?? Shameful!

 

[DarthFed]

you see this doesn't work. You need to go by percentages not absolute numbers. Of course he has a higher number he's played twice as many playoff games as most other folks

You can go off anything you like, and comparing LeBron as a playoff performer isn’t really going in anyone’s favor aside from MJ. The percentages say he’s pretty damn clutch overall. I mentioned a few weeks back about comparing him to Kobe in game 7’s, close out games, and games facing elimination. You won’t hear about that one much, same with Kobe blowing a 3-1 lead against Phoenix and quitting in the 2nd half of game 7.

I get 4-6 in the Finals is bad but his team was also the underdog in 6 or 7 of those finals, which pokes a gigantic hole in the narrative of him being on great teams his whole career. LeBron was arguably the best player on the floor in 2 or 3 of those finals he lost. It’s all just hatred because the guy is who he is. If MJ didn’t exist and LeBron didn’t talk politics there would be about 90% less hate. Ultimately, those who watched MJ know there isn’t a real comparison. The media of course just eats this up. Skip Bayless is a waste of DNA and he will bring up LeBron non stop like a scorned lover

 

[Federberg]

You can go off anything you like, and comparing LeBron as a playoff performer isn’t really going in anyone’s favor aside from MJ. The percentages say he’s pretty damn clutch overall. I mentioned a few weeks back about comparing him to Kobe in game 7’s, close out games, and games facing elimination. You won’t hear about that one much, same with Kobe blowing a 3-1 lead against Phoenix and quitting in the 2nd half of game 7.

I get 4-6 in the Finals is bad but his team was also the underdog in 6 or 7 of those finals, which pokes a gigantic hole in the narrative of him being on great teams his whole career. LeBron was arguably the best player on the floor in 2 or 3 of those finals he lost. It’s all just hatred because the guy is who he is. If MJ didn’t exist and LeBron didn’t talk politics there would be about 90% less hate. Ultimately, those who watched MJ know there isn’t a real comparison. The media of course just eats this up. Skip Bayless is a waste of DNA and he will bring up LeBron non stop like a scorned lover

I agree with most of that. I don't pay much attention to his politics to be honest. It's the campaigning to be called the GOAT that gets on my last nerve. Which of the finals do you consider his team to have been an underdog apart from in '17 and '18? I think in the rest they were at least evenly matched. I don't agree they were an underdog in '16. Everyone wants to forget it now, but Steph was not fully fit. That's not a defence against the loss, it's a rejection of the idea the Cavs were an underdog.

I don't know why people talk about him being the best player on the floor in losing finals, to me that's just a narrative used to defend him by his operatives. I mean.. so what?? One could easily say the same about Wemby this year or even Steph in 2019. It doesn't matter, they lost. I have no mercy for that. I don't know any other star where that's even brought up. It's utterly meaningless to me and if anything makes me loathe the guy more

 

[DarthFed]

I agree with most of that. I don't pay much attention to his politics to be honest. It's the campaigning to be called the GOAT that gets on my last nerve. Which of the finals do you consider his team to have been an underdog apart from in '17 and '18? I think in the rest they were at least evenly matched. I don't agree they were an underdog in '16. Everyone wants to forget it now, but Steph was not fully fit. That's not a defence against the loss, it's a rejection of the idea the Cavs were an underdog.

I don't know why people talk about him being the best player on the floor in losing finals, to me that's just a narrative used to defend him by his operatives. I mean.. so what?? One could easily say the same about Wemby this year or even Steph in 2019. It doesn't matter, they lost. I have no mercy for that. I don't know any other star where that's even brought up. It's utterly meaningless to me and if anything makes me loathe the guy more

The Cavs were heavy underdogs in 2007 against the Spurs, no surprise there. And then were considered heavy underdogs all 4 years against the Warriors with 2016 being the closest. 2015, 2017, and 2018 are clearly not close. The Heat were also slight Vegas underdogs going into 2012 finals vs OKC (llaughable IMO) as well as 2014 vs the Spurs which was reasonable.

And dude, you’re smart, so I think you know why someone would bring up the point that LeBron performed well in many of the finals he lost. He sucked in 2007 which was understandable, and then choked hard in 2011 which is definitely his greatest career failure. Aside from that he has mostly been great, even in defeat. He just hasn’t been Mike, obviously 2011 happened and then even one like 2014 where it should have been close on paper.

 

[Federberg]

The Cavs were heavy underdogs in 2007 against the Spurs, no surprise there. And then were considered heavy underdogs all 4 years against the Warriors with 2016 being the closest. 2015, 2017, and 2018 are clearly not close. The Heat were also slight Vegas underdogs going into 2012 finals vs OKC (llaughable IMO) as well as 2014 vs the Spurs which was reasonable.

And dude, you’re smart, so I think you know why someone would bring up the point that LeBron performed well in many of the finals he lost. He sucked in 2007 which was understandable, and then choked hard in 2011 which is definitely his greatest career failure. Aside from that he has mostly been great, even in defeat. He just hasn’t been Mike, obviously 2011 happened and then even one like 2014 where it should have been close on paper.

I forgot about 2007, I'll concede that one

They might have been considered favourites after Kyrie and KLove got injured in 2015, but if you're using the fact that the Warriors won 67 regular season games, then I'll point to this years finals. Yes we can say that the Spurs were "favourites" but everyone was aware of the match up, are we seriously going to say that the Knicks winning was that much of a surprise? Yes I personally thought that Wemby would find a way, but I wasn't exactly shocked. That's even more the case in 2015 because the so called king was playing against a team that hadn't sniffed a championship in years. By the way it's funny how Steph being injured, Draymond being suspended and Bogut getting injured and Iggy also, doesn't change the narrative about that Cavs win being an all time great thing. If it was the other way around everyone would be saying the Warriors are the luckiest team ever

And yes, I know exactly why folks bring up LeBron being the best player on the floor. It's funny because in 2022 if the Warriors had lost it would have confirmed the narrative that was going around that Steph need injuries or a KD to win. But he was HIM and did his business. And he didn't need NBA officials to suspend any Celtics players, no one got injured etc etc etc... There's always a narrative defending LeLoser. And yes I admit it I'm a hater. I loathe the manufactured narrative. I know you know he's not the one, but I confess it gets my hackles up when the usual narratives are brought up to bolster this guy with a 4 - 6 record in finals. Not 5 - 5, not 6 - 4. NOT goat things

 

[DarthFed]

I forgot about 2007, I'll concede that one

They might have been considered favourites after Kyrie and KLove got injured in 2015, but if you're using the fact that the Warriors won 67 regular season games, then I'll point to this years finals. Yes we can say that the Spurs were "favourites" but everyone was aware of the match up, are we seriously going to say that the Knicks winning was that much of a surprise? Yes I personally thought that Wemby would find a way, but I wasn't exactly shocked. That's even more the case in 2015 because the so called king was playing against a team that hadn't sniffed a championship in years. By the way it's funny how Steph being injured, Draymond being suspended and Bogut getting injured and Iggy also, doesn't change the narrative about that Cavs win being an all time great thing. If it was the other way around everyone would be saying the Warriors are the luckiest team ever

And yes, I know exactly why folks bring up LeBron being the best player on the floor. It's funny because in 2022 if the Warriors had lost it would have confirmed the narrative that was going around that Steph need injuries or a KD to win. But he was HIM and did his business. And he didn't need NBA officials to suspend any Celtics players, no one got injured etc etc etc... There's always a narrative defending LeLoser. And yes I admit it I'm a hater. I loathe the manufactured narrative. I know you know he's not the one, but I confess it gets my hackles up when the usual narratives are brought up to bolster this guy with a 4 - 6 record in finals. Not 5 - 5, not 6 - 4. NOT goat things

Love was already knocked out of the playoffs coming into the finals and then Kyrie was hurt and only played game 1. This left LeBron with a team of scrubs that would have problems winning a YMCA pickup game. So GSW was heavy favorites before game 1 and then it was considered a slam dunk after that game when Kyrie got hurt. Curry and Igodaula may have been banged up in the 2016 finals, but that’s a far cry from Kyrie and Love being our which left the Kardashian as the Cavs next best player.

It’s ok to be a hater but got to have self-awareness about it too Yes, winning against the 73-9 Warriors team is always going to be more impressive than any of Curry’s wins, even though 2022 was extremely impressive. LeBron is the last athlete that gets a pass for anything, it’s the other way around where all his achievements are minimized, and you have a large percentage of people legitimately acting like the guy sucks. How many posts on social media have you seen where you have people putting him outside the top 10 and trying to defend it? I always say if he’s ranked 6-10 you’re a big hater, below that I can’t even take it seriously.

 

[Federberg]

Love was already knocked out of the playoffs coming into the finals and then Kyrie was hurt and only played game 1. This left LeBron with a team of scrubs that would have problems winning a YMCA pickup game. So GSW was heavy favorites before game 1 and then it was considered a slam dunk after that game when Kyrie got hurt. Curry and Igodaula may have been banged up in the 2016 finals, but that’s a far cry from Kyrie and Love being our which left the Kardashian as the Cavs next best player.

It’s ok to be a hater but got to have self-awareness about it too Yes, winning against the 73-9 Warriors team is always going to be more impressive than any of Curry’s wins, even though 2022 was extremely impressive. LeBron is the last athlete that gets a pass for anything, it’s the other way around where all his achievements are minimized, and you have a large percentage of people legitimately acting like the guy sucks. How many posts on social media have you seen where you have people putting him outside the top 10 and trying to defend it? I always say if he’s ranked 6-10 you’re a big hater, below that I can’t even take it seriously.

I'm a hater but I certainly don't put him out of the top 10, I agree that would be ridiculous. But MJ, Kobe, Kareem I put in a tier above him. I think of LeBron being in the same tier as Magic, Duncan and Bird. And I don't see that as a bad thing. I will state frankly that he's had the best career of any basketball player in history and I don't think it's close

As an aside, I find it hilarious how the same folks who say that Kevin Love wasn't significant to claim that Cavs team wasn't a super team will in the same breathe say that his being injured was significant. The logic has never logicked to me. But then I'm dumb as heck! And that's not directed at you. You have sense. You know who the real tennis GOAT is, so you're good in my books. I'm just trying to get the Klutch mist out of your sight line. I'm doing god's work here

 

[DarthFed]

I'm a hater but I certainly don't put him out of the top 10, I agree that would be ridiculous. But MJ, Kobe, Kareem I put in a tier above him. I think of LeBron being in the same tier as Magic, Duncan and Bird. And I don't see that as a bad thing. I will state frankly that he's had the best career of any basketball player in history and I don't think it's close

As an aside, I find it hilarious how the same folks who say that Kevin Love wasn't significant to claim that Cavs team wasn't wasn't a super team will in the same breathe say that his being injured was significant. The logic has never logicked to me. But then I'm dumb as heck! And that's not directed at you. You have sense. You know who the real tennis GOAT is, so you're good in my books. I'm just trying to get the Klutch mist out of your sight line. I'm doing god's work here

I agree with a lot of this. I don’t ever think Love was truly a superstar but obviously at his best he was still a very good player and him being out was going to have an impact. He definitely was a good #3 option and those Cav teams until 2018 were good.

I think Jordan is in his own tier. I just don’t think it’s really close. I then have Kareem, Magic and LeBron in the next tier, then Wilt, Duncan, Russell, Bird, Kobe, Shaq, Dream and Curry in the next one. I get that’s a big tier but they are all fairly close though I’d probably have Dream last of all those listed.

I also hear you about LeBron/Klutch. Bron is a very intelligent and calculated individual. I think even he realizes that his career does not measure up to MJ, and he just tries his best to speak it into existence. He knows the power of controlling the narrative as does his homeboy Rich Paul. It’s getting more and more insufferable especially when you have bozos like Skip and Windhorst that are going to eat it up and talk non-stop about him and things he says and does 365 days a year

 

[Federberg]

I agree with a lot of this. I don’t ever think Love was truly a superstar but obviously at his best he was still a very good player and him being out was going to have an impact. He definitely was a good #3 option and those Cav teams until 2018 were good.

I think Jordan is in his own tier. I just don’t think it’s really close. I then have Kareem, Magic and LeBron in the next tier, then Wilt, Duncan, Russell, Bird, Kobe, Shaq, Dream and Curry in the next one. I get that’s a big tier but they are all fairly close though I’d probably have Dream last of all those listed.

I also hear you about LeBron/Klutch. Bron is a very intelligent and calculated individual. I think even he realizes that his career does not measure up to MJ, and he just tries his best to speak it into existence. He knows the power of controlling the narrative as does his homeboy Rich Paul. It’s getting more and more insufferable especially when you have bozos like Skip and Windhorst that are going to eat it up and talk non-stop about him and things he says and does 365 days a year

I'm not mad at your tiers. I'll give it some more thought to try to truly categorise the top top players.

I agree, MJ is in a class of his own. So maybe more accurate to say...

MJ

Kobe, Kareem (Kobe for the skill, the two way, the competition); (Kareem because no one has done it like him in College and the league)

Magic, Bird, Duncan, Steph, Russell (I personally think it's unfair to separate Bird from Magic, when Magic had Kareem)

Shaq, Dream, Wilt (the two most dominant individuals of all time, and the best defender of all time)