What on Earth is going on in the world today? It's gone mad

[Kieran]

It may not be proportionate in comparison to other states.

I would say that’s correct. The next step in this process is to ask yourself why.

I'd have to analyse it... but the solution wouldn't be to give Israel a pass - it would be to make sure China and Nigeria weren't given a pass either. You don't appear to be disputing the claims so I'm not sure why you would be so keen on this going away. If only 10% of these claims are true they'd still paint a harrowing picture.

I’m not disputing the claims because I don’t trust the source. I agree that Nigeria and North Korea and China and Iran and Russia and the whole entirety of the rest of the world shouldn’t be given a pass, therefore we have to conclude that whoever is giving them a pass is not only untrustworthy, but might be just a smidge biased..

 

[brokenshoelace]

Gaza flotilla activists allege sexual assault and rape in Israeli detention

Israeli prison service denies claims of abuse during detention of 430 people trying to take aid to Palestinians

www.theguardian.com

 

[Federberg]

I try to make a distinction between being wedded to an ideology and being able to absorb facts. I think we all need to be careful about this.

Did Hamas militants commit rapes on October 7th? Yes they did.

Have Israeli settlers and IDF committed rapes against Palestinians after the attacks and also before? Yes they have.

Only one side seems to be able to effectively manage SEO, and has powerful owners of global media companies. If the crimes are only being disseminated widely on one side it's certainly not because they are innocents. There are no innocents in this anymore, if there ever were. There NEEDS to be a two state solution. I actually thought Trump had the kernel of an idea in his first term. He seemed to want the GCC to police a Palestinian state after committing to peace with Israel. I have a horrible feeling that Netanyahu and other right wingers in Israel might have some responsibility for October 7th specifically to kill such a peace plan. The sad truth is that I don't believe those on the right wing of Israeli politics want any such scenario occurring... ever. That would put an end to geographical expansion.

That to me is a problem that needs to be out in the open, discussed and resolved. I find it dishonest that this whole thing is often dismissed and simplified to be about Islamic fundamentalists and terrorism. It's much more complicated than that

 

[Kieran]

I try to make a distinction between being wedded to an ideology and being able to absorb facts. I think we all need to be careful about this.

Did Hamas militants commit rapes on October 7th? Yes they did.

Have Israeli settlers and IDF committed rapes against Palestinians after the attacks and also before? Yes they have.

Only one side seems to be able to effectively manage SEO, and has powerful owners of global media companies. If the crimes are only being disseminated widely on one side it's certainly not because they are innocents. There are no innocents in this anymore, if there ever were. There NEEDS to be a two state solution. I actually thought Trump had the kernel of an idea in his first term. He seemed to want the GCC to police a Palestinian state after committing to peace with Israel. I have a horrible feeling that Netanyahu and other right wingers in Israel might have some responsibility for October 7th specifically to kill such a peace plan. The sad truth is that I don't believe those on the right wing of Israeli politics want any such scenario occurring... ever. That would put an end to geographical expansion.

That to me is a problem that needs to be out in the open, discussed and resolved. I find it dishonest that this whole thing is often dismissed and simplified to be about Islamic fundamentalists and terrorism. It's much more complicated than that

I agree with a lot of this, and certainly a 2-state solution without the input of Hamas might work, but remember the Palestinians have rejected the 2-state solution at least 5 times. Here’s Bill Clinton in a brief video explaining what was offered, and why he thinks it was rejected.

 

[Federberg]

I agree with a lot of this, and certainly a 2-state solution without the input of Hamas might work, but remember the Palestinians have rejected the 2-state solution at least 5 times. Here’s Bill Clinton in a brief video explaining what was offered, and why he thinks it was rejected.

I agree. Arafat backing away from the agreement was tragic. I do often speculate with counter-factuals about what would have happened if he had gone for it. I think that he may well have been correct and he would have been assassinated. But even if he wasn't, I find it hard to believe that the influx of Soviet Jews wouldn't have forced a change eventually, once they came into their political power. I think that agreement would have been shaky without the endorsement of the surrounding Islamic states, and this is where I have to suck it up and admit that Trump at least, more than any other administration that I recall, has been successful in including GCC countries in this thing. I think it's too simple to say that the Palestinians rejected a two state solution and therefore the blame lies just with them. This is the one area where I think that any future solution will have a lot of Trump's work in it, and necessarily so

 

[brokenshoelace]

Translation: For every tear of an Israeli mother, a thousand Lebanese mothers must weep. All of Lebanon must burn!With all due respect to the Americans, Israel must make it clear to the entire world that the blood of our sons and the security of our citizens are not forfeit. All of Lebanon must burn. Our supreme duty is to protect the citizens of Israel and the soldiers of the IDF, and this commitment takes precedence over every other consideration.I told the Prime Minister, even in our private meetings: For every tear of an Israeli mother, a thousand Lebanese mothers must weep.Enough with the ping-pong. In the Middle East, you don’t win with measured responses and restraint—you need to go berserk. To obliterate. To crush the terror.

This is a tweet by Itamar Ben-Gvir, the minister of national security in Israel. This tweet is in response to 4 Israel soldiers who were killed IN LEBANON (as invaders).

The truth is in plain sight but you refuse to see it. I wonder what the dictionary would use to define that Tweet. The thing with Israelis is, they've very transparent about their genocidal fascism. You are just too racist/ignorant to care.

This is comic book villain level language but I've got so called centrists in this thread wondering why Zionism is a curse word.

This is not a "complex issue." Never was.

 

[Murat B.]

Translation: For every tear of an Israeli mother, a thousand Lebanese mothers must weep. All of Lebanon must burn!With all due respect to the Americans, Israel must make it clear to the entire world that the blood of our sons and the security of our citizens are not forfeit. All of Lebanon must burn. Our supreme duty is to protect the citizens of Israel and the soldiers of the IDF, and this commitment takes precedence over every other consideration.I told the Prime Minister, even in our private meetings: For every tear of an Israeli mother, a thousand Lebanese mothers must weep.Enough with the ping-pong. In the Middle East, you don’t win with measured responses and restraint—you need to go berserk. To obliterate. To crush the terror.

This is a tweet by Itamar Ben-Gvir, the minister of national security in Israel. This tweet is in response to 4 Israel soldiers who were killed IN LEBANON (as invaders).

The truth is in plain sight but you refuse to see it. I wonder what the dictionary would use to define that Tweet. The thing with Israelis is, they've very transparent about their genocidal fascism. You are just too racist/ignorant to care.

This is comic book villain level language but I've got so called centrists in this thread wondering why Zionism is a curse word.

This is not a "complex issue." Never was.

No, it never was complex....

The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988

 

[brokenshoelace]

No, it never was complex....

The Avalon Project : Hamas Covenant 1988

Glad you're equating the State of Israel and its Zionist movement with the Hamas terrorists. Time to update the dictionary.

 

[brokenshoelace]

I agree. Arafat backing away from the agreement was tragic. I do often speculate with counter-factuals about what would have happened if he had gone for it. I think that he may well have been correct and he would have been assassinated. But even if he wasn't, I find it hard to believe that the influx of Soviet Jews wouldn't have forced a change eventually, once they came into their political power. I think that agreement would have been shaky without the endorsement of the surrounding Islamic states, and this is where I have to suck it up and admit that Trump at least, more than any other administration that I recall, has been successful in including GCC countries in this thing. I think it's too simple to say that the Palestinians rejected a two state solution and therefore the blame lies just with them. This is the one area where I think that any future solution will have a lot of Trump's work in it, and necessarily so

The other real tragedy was the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. Just don't tell that to Zionists.

Also important to read up on Robert Malley's account of what happened at Camp David in 2000. It's hardly what the Clintons try to sell.

 

[Murat B.]

Glad you're equating the State of Israel and its Zionist movement with the Hamas terrorists. Time to update the dictionary.

I guess Hamas has some say as the governing body of Gaza ( by force of course), but they also won the election in 2007 against Fatah so I would not say it is a stretch to say Hamas has some say in these matters?

 

[Murat B.]

I have a question @britbox .

Of all the "ideas" that came out of the western acidemia and trickled down to some part of the western society in the last 20 years or so, which ones do you embrace personally? I cannot list all of those obviously but some examples would be Rejection of Meritocracy (DEI), Cultural Relativism, Social Constructivism, Postmodernism, Identity Politics, Victimhood, Climate Alarmism ( as in the world will end in the next 10 years)), Rejection of Objective Truths, Gender Issues ( You are what you say you are, biology is a social construct), Grievance Studies, Critical Race Theory etc...

 

[brokenshoelace]

I guess Hamas has some say as the governing body of Gaza ( by force of course), but they also won the election in 2007 against Fatah so I would not say it is a stretch to say Hamas has some say in these matters?

Sure.

I'm just chuckling that after 3 years of "do you condemn Hamas," a sitting Israel minister says "Lebanon must burn in its entirety and a thousand Lebanese mother must weep" and the response is...to invoke Hamas, regarding a statement an Israeli politician made about Lebanon. Like clockwork.

 

[Murat B.]

Sure.

I'm just chuckling that after 3 years of "do you condemn Hamas," a sitting Israel minister says "Lebanon must burn in its entirety and a thousand Lebanese mother must weep" and the response is...to invoke Hamas, regarding a statement an Israeli politician made about Lebanon. Like clockwork.

It is a very valid comparison. You are talking about a minister's opinions, as vile as they may be, and I am showing what he is up against, as evil as they are. The minister says Lebanon must burn in its entirety. Hamas charter Article 11 and 13 among others says the same thing for Israel. You do not see any similarities?

 

[brokenshoelace]

It is a very valid comparison. You are talking about a minister's opinions, as vile as they may be, and I am showing what he is up against, as evil as they are. The minister says Lebanon must burn in its entirety. Hamas charter Article 11 and 13 among others says the same thing for Israel. You do not see any similarities?

The minister's "opinions" are pretty much in line with the State of Israel's violent history and Zionism's fascist ideology. This is by no means an isolated incident and the last 3 years have been filled with this sort of insane violent rhetoric from Israel politicians. Can we call them terrorists, since they're not unlike the Hamas charter? What would the dictionary say? Only you know, this is far worse, given the power imbalance, the ability to actually inflict the kind of suffering he's discussing, the ubiquitous financial, political and military support for Israel in the West, the fact that they're framed as the good guys, their immense media power, the fact that this isn't even a unique opinion among Zionists (you know the same people that organized boat trips to watch bombs dropping on Palestinian children), the fact that he's saying this in retaliation to Israel SOLDIERS being KILLED IN ACTION in A FOREIGN COUNTRY, the fact that this kind of genocidal approach has been a staple of Israel since its very inception (and undeniable fact), coming from the same country currently committing a genocide (it's very curious how you never tackle this point, ever)...and the fact that he's saying this about Lebanon, not Palestine. So I don't know man, it sounds to me like this is currently a far more sinister proposition than what the charter of a bunch of guys with fake Adidas pants and AK 47s says, since we're talking about a nuclear superpower currently throwing a tantrum to hijack the possibility of peace (or is Israel lying about its disappointment in the MOU with Iran?).

 

[Federberg]

I'll add these into the mix for all..

The Myths of Camp David

A conversation with Robert Malley about Israel’s actions in Gaza and the West Bank, why the US failed to bring peace to the region, and his recent book Tomorrow Is Yesterday.

www.thenation.com

check the sourcing at the bottom of this one...

https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/78058

New York Times, Robert Malley, Fictions About the Failure of Camp David

WASHINGTON -- A year ago this week, President Bill Clinton, Prime Minister Ehud Barak of Israel and the Palestinian leader Ya

www.nad.ps

What Happened at Camp David in 2000?

In 2000, Israeli and Palestinian leaders met at Camp David to negotiate a final peace deal. Talks collapsed as Israel refused clear offers and expanded settlements.

imeu.org

Camp David: The Tragedy of Errors | Robert Malley, Hussein Agha

Mr. Malley, as Special Assistant to President Clinton for Arab-Israeli Affairs, was a member of the US peace team and participated in the Camp David

www.nybooks.com

 

[Kieran]

@brokenshoelace - let me ask you a question: do you believe that Hamas use citizens as human shields?

If so - or if no - what do you believe should have been the Israeli response to October 7, and then October 8 when Hezbollah took the opportunity to pile in?

 

[Murat B.]

The minister's "opinions" are pretty much in line with the State of Israel's violent history and Zionism's fascist ideology. This is by no means an isolated incident and the last 3 years have been filled with this sort of insane violent rhetoric from Israel politicians. Can we call them terrorists, since they're not unlike the Hamas charter? What would the dictionary say? Only you know, this is far worse, given the power imbalance, the ability to actually inflict the kind of suffering he's discussing, the ubiquitous financial, political and military support for Israel in the West, the fact that they're framed as the good guys, their immense media power, the fact that this isn't even a unique opinion among Zionists (you know the same people that organized boat trips to watch bombs dropping on Palestinian children), the fact that he's saying this in retaliation to Israel SOLDIERS being KILLED IN ACTION in A FOREIGN COUNTRY, the fact that this kind of genocidal approach has been a staple of Israel since its very inception (and undeniable fact), coming from the same country currently committing a genocide (it's very curious how you never tackle this point, ever)...and the fact that he's saying this about Lebanon, not Palestine. So I don't know man, it sounds to me like this is currently a far more sinister proposition than what the charter of a bunch of guys with fake Adidas pants and AK 47s says, since we're talking about a nuclear superpower currently throwing a tantrum to hijack the possibility of peace (or is Israel lying about its disappointment in the MOU with Iran?).

When I did my military service, we were taught about "asymmetric warfare". Maybe you heard the term. The name Hamas came up many times as a great example of it. In war, you cannot just compare who has what, how many planes, tanks, etc. Of course there is a power imbalance between Israel and Hamas. Hamas knows that too. So their tactics are designed accordingly. Do you think on October 7 they believed they could defeat israel? Of course not. They just wanted a response. Hopefully a big one because that is how they gather sympathy. Attack, kill as many as you can, take hostages back, place them in heavily populated areas, force the enemy to fight in an environment where they cannot even tell who is who. I appreciate the genius of it.
I am not sure what media you follow but there is no support for Israel in the west anymore. Hamas propaganda and tactics took care of that. Almost all media, all of Hollywood, all of acidemia is pro Palestine. And everyone's favorite Greta Thunberg .

 

[Kieran]

When I did my military service, we were taught about "asymmetric warfare". Maybe you heard the term. The name Hamas came up many times as a great example of it. In war, you cannot just compare who has what, how many planes, tanks, etc. Of course there is a power imbalance between Israel and Hamas. Hamas knows that too. So their tactics are designed accordingly. Do you think on October 7 they believed they could defeat israel? Of course not. They just wanted a response. Hopefully a big one because that is how they gather sympathy. Attack, kill as many as you can, take hostages back, place them in heavily populated areas, force the enemy to fight in an environment where they cannot even tell who is who. I appreciate the genius of it.
I am not sure what media you follow but there is no support for Israel in the west anymore. Hamas propaganda and tactics took care of that. Almost all media, all of Hollywood, all of acidemia is pro Palestine. And everyone's favorite Greta Thunberg .

Yeah, Greta, dearie me.

When Greta and the Squad agree with your opinion, you’re bound by some sense of duty to your own integrity to change your views.

But what you’re saying is very true, the West has turned against Israel - and Jews - so completely that it’s better to avoid these conversations with people you don’t know. The hostility to the Jewish state is so embedded in people’s language, that its become casual and automatic, with little critical examination involved, because there isn’t that much goodwill extending towards the Jews to enable it.

But also, @brokenshoelace is correct about racism towards Arabs, but not in the way he thinks. It’s the bigotry of low expectations at play here: people expect less from them, and perhaps expect too much from the Jews. Maybe this is due to the fallacious Marxist framing of the conflict as being one of the “oppressors” deserving everything that due to them, and the “oppressed” being blameless for their barbarity. Or maybe it’s the old “noble savage” bigotry of the 19th century? Almost like they think, “come on, what else can you expect? These poor savages, of course they’ll react this way, aren’t they very cute.” We see this bigotry commonly in the West when it comes to minorities, especially blacks. DEI or DIE (sorry, I forget how to spell it), reparations, affirmative action, is all part of the same package.

Except, in the Middle East, Jews are the tiny minority, and they’re faced with hostility as a matter of routine…

 

[brokenshoelace]

When I did my military service, we were taught about "asymmetric warfare". Maybe you heard the term. The name Hamas came up many times as a great example of it. In war, you cannot just compare who has what, how many planes, tanks, etc. Of course there is a power imbalance between Israel and Hamas. Hamas knows that too. So their tactics are designed accordingly. Do you think on October 7 they believed they could defeat israel? Of course not. They just wanted a response. Hopefully a big one because that is how they gather sympathy. Attack, kill as many as you can, take hostages back, place them in heavily populated areas, force the enemy to fight in an environment where they cannot even tell who is who. I appreciate the genius of it.
I am not sure what media you follow but there is no support for Israel in the west anymore. Hamas propaganda and tactics took care of that. Almost all media, all of Hollywood, all of acidemia is pro Palestine. And everyone's favorite Greta Thunberg .

A complete strawman that again, attempts to side step every criticism of Israel, fails to tackle the genocide, the fascist ideology, how common place the genocidal language is, etc...

Almost all of media being pro Palestine is the joke of the year. Props big guy.

 

[brokenshoelace]

@brokenshoelace - let me ask you a question: do you believe that Hamas use citizens as human shields?

If so - or if no - what do you believe should have been the Israeli response to October 7, and then October 8 when Hezbollah took the opportunity to pile in?

Not a genocide.

Don't kill 22,000 children. Don't kill hundreds of journalists. Don't deliberately target civilians (I'm sure you missed Israeli soldier's testimony about the atrocities since being willfully aloof is a great get out of jail free card for you). Don't have attack dogs rape Palestinian detainees. Don't use sexual violence as a weapon. Don't torture Palestinian civilians without due process and send them back unrecognizable. Don't harvest organs for your organ trade (I'm sure you haven't heard of that either). Don't literally level every building in Gaza (I'm sure there's a Hamas member in every building in Gaza though...human shields!). I don't know man. Any of the above would have been nice.

Do you believe Hamas' attack was justified because Israel had killed over 200 Palestinians in Gaza in 2023 BEFORE October 7? How should Hamas have retaliated? Only using the same logic here.

Maybe not do this?

‘Not a normal war’: doctors say children have been targeted by Israeli snipers in Gaza

IDF says it ‘completely rejects’ charge that its soldiers deliberately fired on any of the thousands of civilians killed in Israeli offensive

www.theguardian.com

Or this?

Opinion | 65 Doctors, Nurses and Paramedics: What We Saw in Gaza (Published 2024)

“Nearly every day I was there, I saw a new young child who had been shot in the head or the chest, virtually all of whom went on to die.”

www.nytimes.com

So no, bigotry against Arab is not your not-so-veiled racist comment about expectations. Bigotry against Arabs is when you're indifferent towards, or worse yet, believe any of the above is justified.