2026 Wimbledon Men's Final: Sinner v Zverev

Who wins?

  • Sinner in 5

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Zverev in 3

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Zverev in 5

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    13

britbox

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Barron.. Let me take you down a rabbit hole. First I agree. Edberg's kicker was legendary and was extremely effective. Let's imagine Stefan playing against Borg and Conners who both had excellent return of serves and was geniuses from the baseline. I think they both would have broken down Stefan's ground strokes once they got the ball in play. It took legends like Mac and Lendl to deal with those two somewhat.. Lendl probably didnt face Prime Borg that much. I think the game dropped a bit when Borg left and the Johnny Mac/Jimbo was at the end of their prime by 1986. The Becker/Edberg era was probably the less talented era in the last 50 years of tennis .. maybe.. Any thoughts?
I think the surface would have made a big difference when considering those matchups. I wouldn't fancy Edberg over Borg on clay for instance - that would be crazy - but grass would be different - that's a live match.

The thing with breaking down Stefan's ground strokes - first of all his entire game is not based on duelling from the back court... sure they could try - but would they be allowed? Both of them would break down McEnroe's ground strokes too if he allowed himself to get sucked into that kind of match. Edberg's backhand was elite by the way - we're just looking at forehand right? and remember what Pete said? However, Connors would be tricky, just like Agassi was tricky for Stefan - both took the ball early and were aggressive.

I don't necessarily think it was a less talented era - There was a lot of variation around IMO, but I'd agree it was a kind of transitional era sitting between Borg/Mac to Courier/Agassi/Sampras with Lendl the thread that linked them together.
 

britbox

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I have to agree that era w/ Edberg & Becker dominating things was an aberration, but it was enjoyable for me! It took me back to the 70's w/ pure "Serve & Volley" tennis going on; probably the last time it happened! The talent was weak in many ways; Connors, Lendl, Wilander, & McEnroe on the wane! Agassi was still mentally unaware as these 2 Hotties somehow ruled 1989-1991; esp. at Wimbledon! :face-with-tears-of-joy::fearful-face::face-with-hand-over-mouth::partying-face:

35075848d748e8690672c309cfdf3afd.jpg
89-91 is a bit of a small span for assessment. Edberg won the AO in 85 and Becker won it in 96. Wilander was only 21, McEnroe 26, and Lendl 25 in 1985. Hardly relics.
 

Fiero425

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89-91 is a bit of a small span for assessment. Edberg won the AO in 85 and Becker won it in 96. Wilander was only 21, McEnroe 26, and Lendl 25 in 1985. Hardly relics.
Just telling you how it was back then when they actual were #1 & #2! I can't go back to '85 as Stefan & Boris were a headache to the elites, but they weren't there yet! Ivan was #1 in '85 thru '88 USO when Wilander finished off his 3 of 4 major winning season taking over! Mats dropped off a cliff after that being upset by Pete Sampras in '89 in the 2nd Rd. of USO IIRC! The ages were all over the place, true enuf, but the level of play was still on the wane allowing Stefan & Becker to be on top w/ very limited games from '89-92! :astonished-face::yawningface::fearful-face::face-with-hand-over-mouth:
 
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britbox

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Just telling you how it was back then when they actual were #1 & #2! I can't go back to '85 as Stefan & Boris were a headache to the elites, but they weren't there yet! Ivan was #1 in '85 thru '88 USO when Wilander finished off his 3 of 4 major winning season taking over! Mats dropped off a cliff after that being upset by Pete Sampras in '89 in the 2nd Rd. of USO IIRC! The ages were all over the place, true enuf, but the level of play was still on the wane allowing Stefan & Becker to be on top w/ very limited games from '89-92! :astonished-face::yawningface::fearful-face::face-with-hand-over-mouth:
I'd disgree - I think Becker and Edberg had more weaponry than Wilander - they didn't luck out on Wilander dropping off a cliff - Mats was being passed by anyway. I'd call him an overachiever if anything.
 

Shivashish Sarkar

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It's hard to give a statement about what could happen at the US Open this year or for that matter American hard court swing. Sinner, Alcaraz, Djokovic or someone else? It's an open field.
 
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Federberg

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I'd disgree - I think Becker and Edberg had more weaponry than Wilander - they didn't luck out on Wilander dropping off a cliff - Mats was being passed by anyway. I'd call him an overachiever if anything.
I completely agree with this. The mid 80s were a transitional period, it was a period where younger players were able to adapt their games to new racquet technology better and more quickly than the older ones. By the time the likes of Agassi and Sampras, and the whole top quality class of 90s Americans, they had probably grown up using the new racquets and strings. Wilander was a phenomenon. I honestly believe his success was situational. If we were still strictly in the era of wooden racquets I'm not sure he would have achieved the success he did. But I also doubt that if he had grown up in the more modern era that he would have achieved the success he did. But his time occurred in that brief period where everyone was adjusting to new tech. To me that makes him special, because he really wasn't special in any particular thing.
 
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the AntiPusher

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I'd disgree - I think Becker and Edberg had more weaponry than Wilander - they didn't luck out on Wilander dropping off a cliff - Mats was being passed by anyway. I'd call him an overachiever if anything.
I think fiero is correct with the way he saw things.. Matts did drop like falling off a cliff. I think because he was quickly forgotten is why you feel Becker and Edberg passed him up.. Yes they had more weaponry that Wilander.. Yet, Matt was so steady.. Ask Ivan Lendl.. Matt was a bad matchup in the GS for Lendl if I remember correctly. However again you bring up some valid points.
 
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Shivashish Sarkar

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I would say Sinner > Alcaraz > Djokovic for the hard court swing. Would totally root for Djokovic if he can make a comeback but that's by the by. Sinner's the man rn on quicker courts. It bears watching if Alcaraz could negate some of that with his top spin and stuff.
 
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Federberg

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^I very much doubt Alcaraz will be playing any time soon. This is the same injury that laid low Delpo and Thiem. I would rather he stays away until Australia. Build strength back naturally. Forcing it didn't work for either Delpo or Thiem
 
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Shivashish Sarkar

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Eastern Europeans sure do age better, so if I look at the Oldest Living Europeans list, I'm sure to find all Eastern Europeans... oh wait, it's all full of Western Europeans:

1​
Ethel Caterham21 Aug 1909116
23
United Kingdom
2​
Lucia Sangenito22 Nov 1910115
23
Italy
3​
Madeleine Dellamonica23 July 1912113
23
France
4​
Merah Smith9 Nov 1912113
23
Jamaica
23
United Kingdom
5​
Maria da Conceição de Brito31 Dec 1912113
23
Portugal
6​
Marcelle Demorgny10 Mar 1913113
23
France
7​
Marie-Louise Bresson15 Mar 1913113
23
French Algeria
23
France
8​
Teresa Fernandez Casado29 July 1913112
23
Spain
9​
Felicidad Hernández Corredera11 Aug 1913112
23
Spain
10​
Hilda Luck19 Feb 1914112
23
United Kingdom

Even for the oldest living European men, just one from Eastern Europe (Romania):

1Vitantonio Lovallo28 Mar 1914112
23
Italy
2Joaquim Varela1 June 1915111
23
Portugal
3Jesús Redondo Bermejo2 June 1915111
23
Spain
4Hugh Munro Kerr9 Oct 1915110
23
United Kingdom
5Iosif Rus28 Oct 1915110
23
Romania
6Joan Escude Farriol6 Jan 1916110
23
Spain
7Pedro Bernadas Mujica2 Aug 1916109
23
Spain
8Joao De Almeida21 Oct 1916109
23
Portugal
9Pere Quintana18 Jan 1917109
23
Spain
10Odd Borlaug31 Mar 1917109
21
Norway

So, Eastern Europeans don't age better even compared to Western Europeans.

Anyways, Djokovic beating Alcaraz at the Olympics was 2 years ago, and the 2025 AO was a year-and-a-half ago. Look at the stats from 2023 to 2024-26. It's been a clear and steady drop. Djokovic won 7 titles, including 3 slams in 2023. He's only won 3 titles combined in 2024-26, with none so far this year. Even if Alcaraz/Sinner don't hold up/retire early, there is already a new crop of players emerging, like Mensik, Fonseca, and Jodar. In 2-3 years, they will be in their primes. Not to mention, possible players in the 2007-09 cohort that will be in their early 20s. Djokovic is heading into his 40s, and as I told you already, the Eastern European aging factor is a myth.

A year and a half is surely a long time. I will give you that. It's true that Novak has struggled after 2023. But that doesn't mean he's done. Players like Agassi and Connors played till their late 30s. I may be off on this stat as I am no statistician but well the point I am making is that it's possible to play into your 40s regardless of your background.
 
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El Dude

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I was pretty young back in the late 80s (middle school) and didn't follow tennis, but looking back and having poured over the historical record, it is a rather interesting era.

First off you had the end of the Connors-Borg-McEnroe hegemony in 1984, Mac's best season (and third or fourth best season of the Open Era, by my accounting). Mac was still very good in '85 but started to slip, and then collapsed the year after, becoming more of a top 20 type for the rest of his career. Connors' last year in the "Big Three" was probably '84, but he would remain a top ten guy pretty much through the end of the 80s. Becker and Edberg started making noise in 1985, so from 85-86 it was a true changing of the guard: Mac and Connors being equaled then passed by Edberg and Becker.

But look at the year-end top 6 in 1985:
  1. Lendl
  2. McEnroe
  3. Wilander
  4. Connors
  5. Edberg
  6. Becker
I don't think there is any other season with all-time greats ranked 1-6.

In '86, Connors (8) and Mac (14) fell back, but in '87 Connors was back in the top 5 and Mac in the top 10. And then in '88, you had this young punk named Andre Agassi zoom up to #3, so you had seven ATGs in the top 11. '89 was Mac's best year since '85 as he finished #4 by winning the WCT Finals and reaching two Slam SFs, but Wilander and Connors faded. And then in 1990, Sampras emerged as a top player and you had another great top 5: Edberg, Becker, Lendl, Agassi, Sampras, with Mac at 13.

My point is that 85-90 saw an interesting mix of ATGs dominating. It is probably the most "Greatness dense" period of the Open Era, in terms of ATGs playing at or near their primes at the same, or nearly the same, time.
 
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Federberg

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I was pretty young back in the late 80s (middle school) and didn't follow tennis, but looking back and having poured over the historical record, it is a rather interesting era.

First off you had the end of the Connors-Borg-McEnroe hegemony in 1984, Mac's best season (and third or fourth best season of the Open Era, by my accounting). Mac was still very good in '85 but started to slip, and then collapsed the year after, becoming more of a top 20 type for the rest of his career. Connors' last year in the "Big Three" was probably '84, but he would remain a top ten guy pretty much through the end of the 80s. Becker and Edberg started making noise in 1985, so from 85-86 it was a true changing of the guard: Mac and Connors being equaled then passed by Edberg and Becker.

But look at the year-end top 6 in 1985:
  1. Lendl
  2. McEnroe
  3. Wilander
  4. Connors
  5. Edberg
  6. Becker
I don't think there is any other season with all-time greats ranked 1-6.

In '86, Connors (8) and Mac (14) fell back, but in '87 Connors was back in the top 5 and Mac in the top 10. And then in '88, you had this young punk named Andre Agassi zoom up to #3, so you had seven ATGs in the top 11. '89 was Mac's best year since '85 as he finished #4 by winning the WCT Finals and reaching two Slam SFs, but Wilander and Connors faded. And then in 1990, Sampras emerged as a top player and you had another great top 5: Edberg, Becker, Lendl, Agassi, Sampras, with Mac at 13.

My point is that 85-90 saw an interesting mix of ATGs dominating. It is probably the most "Greatness dense" period of the Open Era, in terms of ATGs playing at or near their primes at the same, or nearly the same, time.
you can look at it that way. Or you can say that when we had the Big 4 that's the most ATG dense era we've ever had. Those mofos cleared out opportunities for everyone else. As I've said before, there are ATG careers that were still born because of those selfish bastards
 

El Dude

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you can look at it that way. Or you can say that when we had the Big 4 that's the most ATG dense era we've ever had. Those mofos cleared out opportunities for everyone else. As I've said before, there are ATG careers that were still born because of those selfish bastards
Perhaps in terms of total dominance. I was more talking about quantity of ATGs playing at or near their peak. Or let's illustrate it this way.

Terms such as "peak" and "prime" have no official definitions, but let's use the latter for "within the span of when a player was capable of playing near their best level." Or to put it another way, if every player has a "best result" comparable to their talent level (e.g. greats = Slams, elites = Masters, very good players = ATP 500s, etc), it is the same of time in which a player was able to reach that level. For ATGs, we could say that is the span of years between their first and last big title or Slam final. Meaning, winning a big title or reaching a Slam final is a "great" result - and the span of first and last could give us a rough estimation of when an ATG was, well, "great."

So for the Big Four we have:
Roger: 2002-19
Rafa: 2005-22
Novak: 2007-26
Andy: 2008-16

If we consider the pre-Big Four greats to be Sampras and Agassi, their spans are:
Sampras: 1990-2002
Agassi: 1990-2005

And the post-Big Four greats to be Alcaraz and SInner:
Alcaraz: 2022-present
Sinner: 2023- present

Now obviously these are rough estimates and don't account for oscillations in level. For instance, I don't think Roger became a truly great player until late 2003; in 2002 he won his first Masters, but he was erratic and didn't really come into form as a consistently great player until the end of 2003. Similarly with Sinner: We see a transition in late 2023 as he won his first Masters, reached the Tour Finals final, but then he "locked in" at the 2024 AO. Or someone like Agassi was pretty damn good in 1988, but didn't have his first "big result" until 1990 and really, he was up and down in terms of being an elite player.

My point being, these spans aren't exact equivalencies for prime level, but they do approximate.

Anyhow, the Big Four era didn't really have much by the way of overlapping greats, either from generations before or after. Agassi was there at the beginning and still a great player in 2005, the first true year of Fedal, but gone by the time Novak and Andy became elite players in 2007-08. Similarly on the other end, by the time Alcaraz emerged in 2022, Roger had retired, Andy was far from his prime, and Rafa was about to exit stage left.

If we want to get a bit granular about it, we could say that Stan Wawrinka was the equivalent to a great player from 2014-16, so in those years there was the equivalent of five ATGs playing at the same time at a level at or near prime levels. But even there, Rafa was injured in the latter half of 2014 and struggling in 2015-16; Roger struggled in 2016. The Big Four's peak, as a group, was probably 2011-12. I have often dubbed 2012 as "The Year of the Big Four," because they all won a Slam and all were playing as close to their collective best as we've ever seen.

Anyhow, just kind of rambling. In summary, I do think you can make the argument that the "density of talent" was the highest its ever been during the height of the Big Four era, perhaps especially in the 2011-14 range. But really, there are several periods of high "talent density": the mid-to-late 80s period, I'd say the 78-81 period, too, is up there.
 
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the AntiPusher

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I was pretty young back in the late 80s (middle school) and didn't follow tennis, but looking back and having poured over the historical record, it is a rather interesting era.

First off you had the end of the Connors-Borg-McEnroe hegemony in 1984, Mac's best season (and third or fourth best season of the Open Era, by my accounting). Mac was still very good in '85 but started to slip, and then collapsed the year after, becoming more of a top 20 type for the rest of his career. Connors' last year in the "Big Three" was probably '84, but he would remain a top ten guy pretty much through the end of the 80s. Becker and Edberg started making noise in 1985, so from 85-86 it was a true changing of the guard: Mac and Connors being equaled then passed by Edberg and Becker.

But look at the year-end top 6 in 1985:
  1. Lendl
  2. McEnroe
  3. Wilander
  4. Connors
  5. Edberg
  6. Becker
I don't think there is any other season with all-time greats ranked 1-6.

In '86, Connors (8) and Mac (14) fell back, but in '87 Connors was back in the top 5 and Mac in the top 10. And then in '88, you had this young punk named Andre Agassi zoom up to #3, so you had seven ATGs in the top 11. '89 was Mac's best year since '85 as he finished #4 by winning the WCT Finals and reaching two Slam SFs, but Wilander and Connors faded. And then in 1990, Sampras emerged as a top player and you had another great top 5: Edberg, Becker, Lendl, Agassi, Sampras, with Mac at 13.

My point is that 85-90 saw an interesting mix of ATGs dominating. It is probably the most "Greatness dense" period of the Open Era, in terms of ATGs playing at or near their primes at the same, or nearly the same, time.
thanks @El Dude .. My recall was similar and I am glad you did the research You are the GOAT when MM isnt available
 

MargaretMcAleer

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EL Dude

If you are around our favorite Gill Gross has given his final wrap on the final between Sinner and Zverev
Noted:,
As I was talking to Don Fabio before the mens final, Sinner's serve again was the high light of his title defence, when he got a read on the bombs of Zverev, his return game just shone
When you consider he has just 2 BP 1 in the SF against Novak and saved it
1 in the mens final against Zverev and saved it
His defence and sliding on the grass, doesent get enough praise as far as I am concerned being a Junior Ski champion at age 14 also helped translate to the tennis courts
This stat is just "Sic'
Sinner has now held serve 87 consecutive games against Zverev going back to their Vienna meeting in October 25
 
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