MargaretMcAleer
The GOAT
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2013
- Messages
- 56,126
- Reactions
- 34,919
- Points
- 113
Fiero425
The GOAT
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2013
- Messages
- 12,305
- Reactions
- 2,885
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Website
- fiero4251.blogspot.com
OTOH, Djokovic defeated Nadal 7 times in a row twice; all of 2011 into '12 Aussie Open, then 2015 per.! The 12 str. c/b his run on HC over Rafa!
El Dude
The GOAT
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2013
- Messages
- 11,401
- Reactions
- 7,564
- Points
- 113
The fact they played 61 matches is kind of crazy - I believe that is the most of any two players in the Open Era. You'd have to go back to the pro tours to find more H2H matches. For instance, Wikipedia has Laver-Rosewall at 90-75, or 165 matches!
Anyhow, as far as Novak vs. Rafa, here's a chart I made of their H2H. As with many such charts, the main thing is general visual impression, but you can also get some detail with each tournament and the round the match took place in, plus the year. But you might need to click on it to get the details.
Anyhow, as far as Novak vs. Rafa, here's a chart I made of their H2H. As with many such charts, the main thing is general visual impression, but you can also get some detail with each tournament and the round the match took place in, plus the year. But you might need to click on it to get the details.
Novak beating Rafa 7 times in 2011-early 2012, when both were at their peaks, is impressive. I wished they would have played as much in 2010, which was Rafa's best year. Not playing that much that year makes the rivalry look more lopsided than it really was.
I wonder who wins 2010 Rafa vs. 2011 Novak, when both are at their absolute best.
MargaretMcAleer
The GOAT
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2013
- Messages
- 56,126
- Reactions
- 34,919
- Points
- 113
Carlos Alcaraz has withdrawn from Cincinnati still recovering from a wrist injury, despite recent video's practicing with higher intensity
Other players to date that have withdrawn
Bublik, Korder, Davdoivich Fokina, Rune
Main draw wild cards,
Dimitrov, Monfils, Wawrinka, Draper
Other players to date that have withdrawn
Bublik, Korder, Davdoivich Fokina, Rune
Main draw wild cards,
Dimitrov, Monfils, Wawrinka, Draper
Last edited:
the AntiPusher
The GOAT
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2013
- Messages
- 18,156
- Reactions
- 7,844
- Points
- 113
I will bite on this one.. Check out the early days of their h2h matches when Roger was in his prime and Rafa was his sole lone challenger..
MargaretMcAleer
The GOAT
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2013
- Messages
- 56,126
- Reactions
- 34,919
- Points
- 113
El Dude
The GOAT
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2013
- Messages
- 11,401
- Reactions
- 7,564
- Points
- 113
I've covered this before. 2011 Rafa = 2010 Rafa, except for his results against Novak. His performance against everyone else is almost exactly the same.
2010 Rafa: 71-10 (87.7%); vs. Novak 2-0; vs everyone else 69-10
2011 Rafa: 69-15 (82.1%) vs. Novak 0-6; vs everyone else 69-9
Meaning, same number of wins, and actually one loss better in 2011 if you ignore Novak matches. Novak utterly owned him in 2011 -- that's the only difference, otherwise Rafa was the same guy against every other player (overall).
But...
Rafa re-balanced for most of the rest of their career. He adjusted, and it was more of a seesaw after. Novak owned him in 2011 and into 2012, but then Rafa adjusted and won 6 of 7. Then Novak owned him again, but only when Rafa was struggling in 2015-16. Rafa came back. They were essentially equals, in peak years.
Another way to look at it is that Rafa dominated early on vs. Novak 1.0 (2007-10), but then Novak 2.0 dominated in 2011, but then Rafa re-adjusted and they were basically equals. Rafa still had the edge on clay, Novak on hards (but won their last nine matches on hards), and about equal on grass (vs. each other):
Rafa vs. Novak
Grass: 2-2
Clay: 20-9
Hards: 7-20
But as with Rafa's match-up vs. Roger, the H2H Is skewed by a high percentage of matches played on clay. For Djokodal, it was 29 of 61, or 47.5%. Fedal saw 16 of 40 matches on clay, or 40%. Clay generally accounts for 30-35% of all tournaments, so you could say that the surfaces they played on gave Rafa a big advantage over Novak, and a moderate advantage over Roger.
This is mostly because Rafa was so dominant on clay that he was always in the finals, but it also gave him a bit of a "home court advantage" in an outsized percentage of their matches, especially vs. Novak.
MargaretMcAleer
The GOAT
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2013
- Messages
- 56,126
- Reactions
- 34,919
- Points
- 113
Holger Rune has withdrawn from Cincinnati Masters
Apparently achilles is still not fully recovered. Better not to rush.
Apparently achilles is still not fully recovered. Better not to rush.
Fiero425
The GOAT
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2013
- Messages
- 12,305
- Reactions
- 2,885
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Website
- fiero4251.blogspot.com
It's the main reason I'd never put Nadal on a pedestal as the GOAT b/c his main success was on clay! Borg distinguished himself by taking those 5 Wimbledons in a row & making 6 Str. finals! I know it sounds weird, but if Rafa had allowed a few losses when down, he might've won more on other surfaces! He literally "killed himself" inside in some of those contests! It invariably broke him down even though he hung on for 20 yrs.! He'll be repairing & replacing parts on him until the day he dies more than likely! I can see hip, knee, & feet surgeries in his future!
As usual, all over these stats! Thanks! (Lastest Comment to blog) ;-)
Last edited:
El Dude
The GOAT
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2013
- Messages
- 11,401
- Reactions
- 7,564
- Points
- 113
OK, well that's that. I know officially like Sinner better than Alcaraz.
MargaretMcAleer
The GOAT
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2013
- Messages
- 56,126
- Reactions
- 34,919
- Points
- 113
LOL! that was only temporary, I have seen a recent training sessions and the braids have gone
MargaretMcAleer
The GOAT
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2013
- Messages
- 56,126
- Reactions
- 34,919
- Points
- 113
El Dude
The GOAT
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2013
- Messages
- 11,401
- Reactions
- 7,564
- Points
- 113
Fiero's top 4 all-time:It's the main reason I'd never put Nadal on a pedestal as the GOAT b/c his main success was on clay! Borg distinguished himself by taking those 5 Wimbledons in a row & making 6 Str. finals! I know it sounds weird, but if Rafa had allowed a few losses when down, he might've won more on other surfaces! He literally "killed himself" inside in some of those contests! It invariably broke him down even though he hung on for 20 yrs.! He'll be repairing & replacing parts on him until the day he dies more than likely! I can see hip, knee, & feet surgeries in his future!
As usual, all over these stats! Thanks! (Lastest Comment to blog) ;-)
1. Djokovic
2. Borg
3. Federer, when he was young and not wussing out against Nadal
4. No one else, because everyone else sucks
Fiero425
The GOAT
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2013
- Messages
- 12,305
- Reactions
- 2,885
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Website
- fiero4251.blogspot.com
That's about right! You've been paying attention! I'm not only impressed, I'm flattered!
MargaretMcAleer
The GOAT
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2013
- Messages
- 56,126
- Reactions
- 34,919
- Points
- 113
After his forced retirement in Masters Monteral, Frances Tiafoe has had small surgery procedure to remove a cyst from his hand, no word yet if this puts his appearance in Cincinnati in doubt
Fiero425
The GOAT
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2013
- Messages
- 12,305
- Reactions
- 2,885
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Chicago, IL
- Website
- fiero4251.blogspot.com
My initial response: That's about right! You've been paying attn.! I'm not only impressed, I'm flattered!
I'll fill in the blanks OTOH here:
1. Djokovic - Obvious GOAT w/ all the #'s in his favor (24 Majors, 40 Masters, 8 YE #1's, 7 YEC's, 428 Wks. @#1, & OGM
2. Borg - The man owned the early Pro Era taking lead w/ 11 Majors
3. Federer; when he was young & not wussing out against Nadal
4. Sampras deserves respect for his time! He initially took the overall lead w/14 in Majors held by Emerson's 12 (mostly Am. Majors)
5. Nadal can't be overlooked; even w/ his limitations (22 Majors)
6. Agassi gets a nod even though quite a few seasons of waste over 20 yrs! The 1st "Career GS" w/ OGM
7.Connors w/ his body of work over 20 yrs on the tour (109 Titles)
8. McEnroe w/ a few magnificents yrs. of excellence
9. Lendl S/B ahead of McEnroe & Connors w/ 8 Majors, but never pulled off that Wimbledon he treasured so much
10. A few players have the potential to make the list, but haven't done enuf yet: Alcaraz, Sinner. etc.
- - (Feel free to make changes or give opinions)
El Dude
The GOAT
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2013
- Messages
- 11,401
- Reactions
- 7,564
- Points
- 113
Well, even though I love stats and charts, I still struggle to settle on a specific ranking - mostly because I can never decide how to balance peak and overall career accomplishments.My initial response: That's about right! You've been paying attn.! I'm not only impressed, I'm flattered!
I'll fill in the blanks OTOH here:
1. Djokovic - Obvious GOAT w/ all the #'s in his favor (24 Majors, 40 Masters, 8 YE #1's, 7 YEC's, 428 Wks. @#1, & OGM
2. Borg - The man owned the early Pro Era taking lead w/ 11 Majors
3. Federer; when he was young & not wussing out against Nadal
4. Sampras deserves respect for his time! He initially took the overall lead w/14 in Majors held by Emerson's 12 (mostly Am. Majors)
5. Nadal can't be overlooked; even w/ his limitations (22 Majors)
6. Agassi gets a nod even though quite a few seasons of waste over 20 yrs! The 1st "Career GS" w/ OGM
7.Connors w/ his body of work over 20 yrs on the tour (109 Titles)
8. McEnroe w/ a few magnificents yrs. of excellence
9. Lendl S/B ahead of McEnroe & Connors w/ 8 Majors, but never pulled off that Wimbledon he treasured so much
10. A few players have the potential to make the list, but haven't done enuf yet: Alcaraz, Sinner. etc.
- - (Feel free to make changes or give opinions)
There's also the problem of Rod Laver and the Open Era. I think he's got about as good a claim to GOAT status and Djokovic, if we consider tennis history as a whole. But then we also have to include Pancho Gonzales, Rosewall, and Tilden, at least - if not Budge, Kramer, Vines, etc...at least in a top 20-30.
"Open Era Only" is easier, and pushes Laver down the list. Still top 20, maybe top 10, but not top 5.
But peak vs. career remains an issue, and no player is more impacted by this than Borg, who is the hardest to rank of any Open Era great. However...you're not going to like this, but even when emphasizing peak, Borg tends to be a bit over-rated, imo. He was great, but were his best two years (1979-80) greater than, say, Lendl's (1986-87)? Or McEnroe's (1981, 84)? Just as Borg tends to be a tad overrated due to the mystique from his early retirement, Lendl tends to be underrated, because of that 8-11 record in Slam finals, but that is largely due to him playing along side more all-time greats in their primes than any other player. Lendl faced late prime Connors and Borg, full prime McEnroe, Edberg, Wilander and Becker; and early prime Agassi and Sampras.
Anyhow, I'd also rank Novak #1 -- for the Open Era, at least. He is, at worst, the first among near equals. Roger and Rafa would be 2a and 2b. I think, all things tolled, they are too close to rank one over the other. Both have their arguments, and both sort of equalize each other. EDIT: After doing my ranking below, I give Roger a tiny edge, because his two or three best years are better than Rafa's best. But again, I see them as close enough to make any edge meaningless.
I'd then rank Borg, McEnroe, Lendl, and Sampras in some order. It isn't as clear as the conventional "Sampras, Borg, Mac, Lendl" ranking that most lists employ. Sampras' weakness on clay and playing much of his peak during a relatively softer era weakens his edge over the others. I know, 14 Slams, but I think Borg and Mac were both better at their best, and Lendl arguably so as well. I'll still give Sampras the slight edge below, but it is closer than mere Slam count implies.
Connors is both clearly behind that group, and clearly ahead of everyone else - at least among Open Era only guys. I'd then insert Laver, for being the best player of the first four years of the Open Era, which included one of the two best season (1969) of the Open Era; but being the best player for four straight years is rather impressive, even if his Open Era career was pretty short.
I'd rank Agassi, Becker, Edberg, and Wilander, in that order, in a group. Agassi gets the edge due to longevity, but I think you could argue that the other three were slightly better during their peaks. To be honest, I think Agassi tends to be a bit overrated. He was a legitimately great player, but his name career more weight than his record. And really, he only had two truly great years: 1995 and 1999. The rest of his career was rather erratic, and he didn't put together a clear strong peak of a few years like those other guys did. Murray is the best of the rest, as befit his career compared to the Big Three.
OK, now Alcaraz and Sinner. Obviously it is too soon to assess them historically, but as of this moment, I'd probably rank them both between Laver and Agassi. Their peaks--especially Sinner's--are closer to the Sampras group than Agassi and the rest, and really to clearly surpass Agassi, they only need another year or two at a similar level. But I'd already them above him. Connors just had to too long of a career not to give him an edge over them, but I have little doubt that they'll eventually surpass him and--at least--join the "purple tier" below.
Here's how I'd sort it all out.
OPEN ERA (only) TOP 20 (color coded by tiers)
- Djokovic
- Federer
- Nadal
- Sampras
- Lendl
- Borg
- McEnroe
- Connors
- Laver
- Sinner
- Alcaraz
- Agassi
- Becker
- Edberg
- Wilander
- Murray
- Vilas
- Newcombe
- Nastase
- Ashe
If we were considering all of tennis history, I'd probably rank Laver #1, then add Tilden, Rosewall, and Gonzales to the top 10, and Budge, Kramer, Vines and maybe Perry to the top 20. I'd consider Kozeluh, Drobny, and Riggs, too. I'd probably avoid players before Tilden and the pro/amateur split in the 1920s, because it is just too hard to compare. But the sport was relatively stable from the mid-20s through 1967, that we have enough continuity to compare Tilden's dominance to say, the dominance of the Big Three.
And to me, that's how such lists should be considered: relative dominance to the era a player played in - not specific statistical metrics, because those change over time.
Last edited:
mrzz
Hater
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2013
- Messages
- 6,896
- Reactions
- 3,979
- Points
- 113
Peak. Once I realized that, I lost interest in the GOAT debate. Then, Djokovic rèsumè became undebatable, while on the other hand for me is strikingly obvious he is not the GOAT.
Career is about longevity. Of course this matters, and it says a lot, if you are still a top dog close to your forties you are pretty damn good, but still...
