NBA (whenever)...

[Federberg]

have we seen peak Jokic? The Wolves absolutely battered them in game 3. What's worse, I don't think Ant-Man has had any spectacular games yet.

PS, as much as I'm enjoying this series (and the Knicks-Hawks) I can't help feeling that this is all working out for OKC to just stroll to an easy defence of their title.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Kobe > Lebron is an indefensible take.

 

[Murat B.]

Kobe > Lebron is an indefensible take.

Oh I can defend it quite comfortably. It all depends on metrics you use or what you value in a player more. So , it is subjective I guess. because the only objective thing is the rings. But I am not picking Kobe over Bron because he won more rings. It is his mentality overall . Like I said Bron is a freak, deserves all the respect but I never quite gotten over the bad taste in my mouth when he "took his talents" to form a supergroup boy band in Miami in chase of a title. The players I respect the most , like Jordan, Magic, Bird, they wanted to BEAT their opponents, not join them for a ring.
Like I said, all subjective . If you want to look at stats, sure, Bron is God.

 

[Federberg]

Oh I can defend it quite comfortably. It all depends on metrics you use or what you value in a player more. So , it is subjective I guess. because the only objective thing is the rings. But I am not picking Kobe over Bron because he won more rings. It is his mentality overall . Like I said Bron is a freak, deserves all the respect but I never quite gotten over the bad taste in my mouth when he "took his talents" to form a supergroup boy band in Miami in chase of a title. The players I respect the most , like Jordan, Magic, Bird, they wanted to BEAT their opponents, not join them for a ring.
Like I said, all subjective . If you want to look at stats, sure, Bron is God.

and even when you look at stats you have to look at them without normalisation. Yes Lebron is at the top with number of points, but that's because he's been around for a million years. PPG is a better identifier of scoring proficiency. Same with assists, rebounds etc..

I honestly believe the rape accusation has had a lasting impact on Kobe's legacy. It's always amusing when some folks use Shaq to diminish Kobe, but don't talk about Kareem wrt Magic, or Magic wrt Kareem. Make it make sense!

 

[britbox]

Oh I can defend it quite comfortably. It all depends on metrics you use or what you value in a player more. So , it is subjective I guess. because the only objective thing is the rings. But I am not picking Kobe over Bron because he won more rings. It is his mentality overall . Like I said Bron is a freak, deserves all the respect but I never quite gotten over the bad taste in my mouth when he "took his talents" to form a supergroup boy band in Miami in chase of a title. The players I respect the most , like Jordan, Magic, Bird, they wanted to BEAT their opponents, not join them for a ring.
Like I said, all subjective . If you want to look at stats, sure, Bron is God.

I haven't followed Basketball for years - the last time I was into it was when Kobe/Shaq had to coalesce to see off the Sacramento Kings over a 2-3 year period around 25 years ago. When the Kings had the likes of Bibby, Divac and Chris Webber on the roster... and even that perio was after a major break from the Jordan years following the Piston years following the Celtic/Lakers rivalry (The Magic years as a Laker fan).

The strangest thing for me was the player greatness ranking. Kareem obviously had the history and was captain, but nobody in 1988 (for example) would put Kareem above Magic. Kareem has aged like a fine wine purely on stats. A few years ago some morons had elevated him above MJ... he wasn't above Magic 35 years ago, so how did some elevate him above MJ? Ridiculous. Jordan took the sport to a new level.

I don't like Lebron too much and haven't watched the Lakers while he has been there. At least Kobe recognised the heritage of the Lakers. Lebron and Durant's bullshit rants about Larry Bird did it for me. The NBA was built on the shoulders of predecessors... Bird and Magic were pioneers of the modern NBA, and these morons are the beneficiaries... with no gratitude.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Oh I can defend it quite comfortably. It all depends on metrics you use or what you value in a player more. So , it is subjective I guess. because the only objective thing is the rings. But I am not picking Kobe over Bron because he won more rings. It is his mentality overall . Like I said Bron is a freak, deserves all the respect but I never quite gotten over the bad taste in my mouth when he "took his talents" to form a supergroup boy band in Miami in chase of a title. The players I respect the most , like Jordan, Magic, Bird, they wanted to BEAT their opponents, not join them for a ring.
Like I said, all subjective . If you want to look at stats, sure, Bron is God.

Lebron's body of work is way more than just stats though. We can get into the details of it, but I just don't understand how anyone who seriously watched both play could claim Kobe Bryant is better at Basketball than Lebron. Even with the whole "Mamba Mentality" thing, Lebron's clutch numbers are quite a bit superior. So if we take out the preference of what you or I like to see in a player in terms of attitude and how they carry themselves, there really isn't much of a debate. Lebron is a better scorer, better playmaker, better passer, better rebounder, etc... The extra ring doesn't mean much IMO because playing with prime Shaq surely helped. You put Lebron and prime Shaq together and they may as well cancel the league.

The problem with Kobe's GOAT merits is other than him being a Jordan clone with significantly worse numbers (5 full points per game less on average on much worse efficiency) and one less ring, he's a top 10 player, you have to really move past his shortcomings. Missing playoffs in his prime (yeah it was a bad team, no doubt, but still), or some god awful finals performances including the Detroit series which damn near puts Lebron's 2011 choke job to shame. Most arguments against Lebron seem to boil down to "well I just don't like the guy" anyway.

Lebron is at worst the second best player of all time. There's quite a bit of arbitrary mental gymnastics to put him below that, which is fine, it's what the GOAT debate is after all. I just really can't subscribe to Kobe being better in any meaningful way.

 

[brokenshoelace]

I don't like Lebron too much and haven't watched the Lakers while he has been there. At least Kobe recognised the heritage of the Lakers. Lebron and Durant's bullshit rants about Larry Bird did it for me. The NBA was built on the shoulders of predecessors... Bird and Magic were pioneers of the modern NBA, and these morons are the beneficiaries... with no gratitude.

This is a different subject but a very important one. For the longest time, the NBA was probably the best sport at recognizing the impact of predecessors. All players seemed to appreciate that they're standing on the shoulders of giants. Then the old guard got really bitter and started talking (but crucially, it was rarely the actual legends who did the talking) and the newer generation fought back but in doing so, went way overboard with the disrespect.

 

[Murat B.]

I haven't followed Basketball for years - the last time I was into it was when Kobe/Shaq had to coalesce to see off the Sacramento Kings over a 2-3 year period around 25 years ago. When the Kings had the likes of Bibby, Divac and Chris Webber on the roster... and even that perio was after a major break from the Jordan years following the Piston years following the Celtic/Lakers rivalry (The Magic years as a Laker fan).

The strangest thing for me was the player greatness ranking. Kareem obviously had the history and was captain, but nobody in 1988 (for example) would put Kareem above Magic. Kareem has aged like a fine wine purely on stats. A few years ago some morons had elevated him above MJ... he wasn't above Magic 35 years ago, so how did some elevate him above MJ? Ridiculous. Jordan took the sport to a new level.

I don't like Lebron too much and haven't watched the Lakers while he has been there. At least Kobe recognised the heritage of the Lakers. Lebron and Durant's bullshit rants about Larry Bird did it for me. The NBA was built on the shoulders of predecessors... Bird and Magic were pioneers of the modern NBA, and these morons are the beneficiaries... with no gratitude.

Agreed.
Have you seen the movie Air ? A good movie about the sneaker wars in the 80's.

 

[britbox]

This is a different subject but a very important one. For the longest time, the NBA was probably the best sport at recognizing the impact of predecessors. All players seemed to appreciate that they're standing on the shoulders of giants. Then the old guard got really bitter and started talking (but crucially, it was rarely the actual legends who did the talking) and the newer generation fought back but in doing so, went way overboard with the disrespect.

I don't think Bird was one of them mate and yet he seemed top of the disparagement list. Barkley, Rodman and Isiah maybe,

 

[britbox]

Agreed.
Have you seen the movie Air ? A good movie about the sneaker wars in the 80's.

No, but I remember having a Converse poster with Magic. I presume Air is about Jordan and Nike?

 

[Murat B.]

Lebron's body of work is way more than just stats though. We can get into the details of it, but I just don't understand how anyone who seriously watched both play could claim Kobe Bryant is better at Basketball than Lebron. Even with the whole "Mamba Mentality" thing, Lebron's clutch numbers are quite a bit superior. So if we take out the preference of what you or I like to see in a player in terms of attitude and how they carry themselves, there really isn't much of a debate. Lebron is a better scorer, better playmaker, better passer, better rebounder, etc... The extra ring doesn't mean much IMO because playing with prime Shaq surely helped. You put Lebron and prime Shaq together and they may as well cancel the league.

The problem with Kobe's GOAT merits is other than him being a Jordan clone with significantly worse numbers (5 full points per game less on average on much worse efficiency) and one less ring, he's a top 10 player, you have to really move past his shortcomings. Missing playoffs in his prime (yeah it was a bad team, no doubt, but still), or some god awful finals performances including the Detroit series which damn near puts Lebron's 2011 choke job to shame. Most arguments against Lebron seem to boil down to "well I just don't like the guy" anyway.

Lebron is at worst the second best player of all time. There's quite a bit of arbitrary mental gymnastics to put him below that, which is fine, it's what the GOAT debate is after all. I just really can't subscribe to Kobe being better in any meaningful way.

I do not disagree with almost anything you say. Honestly. But like I said, the mentality is a huge thing for me. People said Kobe had Shaq..so what did he do, he won two more rings without Shaq. That is impressive. Stat comparison is a bit tricky too because of positions played and size but it is what it is.
Either way, these are top 3 players. How you line them up is always going to include some subjectivity, no?

 

[Murat B.]

No, but I remember having a Converse poster with Magic. I presume Air is about Jordan and Nike?

Yes, how Nike got him (when he was an Adidas guy and hated Nike) and how his mother changed the industry. Check it out.

 

[britbox]

Yes, how Nike got him (when he was an Adidas guy and hated Nike) and how his mother changed the industry. Check it out.

Sounds interesting mate - I'll check it out. I didn't like Nike much either back in the day, the last garment I had was a John McEnroe Nike cagool (a hooded waterproof top) around 1985. I left it on a bus by accident and got screamed at by my mother. I never bought anything Nike since - it was regarded as a bit of an American trash brand where we grew up (for half a generation at least - Adidas ruled with Lacoste) but Jordan was powerful and all the younger set were buying Nike.

 

[Federberg]

I haven't followed Basketball for years - the last time I was into it was when Kobe/Shaq had to coalesce to see off the Sacramento Kings over a 2-3 year period around 25 years ago. When the Kings had the likes of Bibby, Divac and Chris Webber on the roster... and even that perio was after a major break from the Jordan years following the Piston years following the Celtic/Lakers rivalry (The Magic years as a Laker fan).

The strangest thing for me was the player greatness ranking. Kareem obviously had the history and was captain, but nobody in 1988 (for example) would put Kareem above Magic. Kareem has aged like a fine wine purely on stats. A few years ago some morons had elevated him above MJ... he wasn't above Magic 35 years ago, so how did some elevate him above MJ? Ridiculous. Jordan took the sport to a new level.

I don't like Lebron too much and haven't watched the Lakers while he has been there. At least Kobe recognised the heritage of the Lakers. Lebron and Durant's bullshit rants about Larry Bird did it for me. The NBA was built on the shoulders of predecessors... Bird and Magic were pioneers of the modern NBA, and these morons are the beneficiaries... with no gratitude.

preach brother! Re: Kareem, I agree. Then as now, most people are able to make a distinction between greatness and good stats. That's not to say that Kareem isn't great. He's possibly the most accomplished player in terms of college and pro career. But the fact is, Kareem had all those stats at a time MJ was only starting to build his, and already everyone acknowledged MJ's greatness. I honestly can't understand how folks can watch Lebron trying to get into his bag to get around even Steph, and seriously call him the best basketball player they've ever seen. It's utterly absurd!

 

[britbox]

This is a different subject but a very important one. For the longest time, the NBA was probably the best sport at recognizing the impact of predecessors. All players seemed to appreciate that they're standing on the shoulders of giants. Then the old guard got really bitter and started talking (but crucially, it was rarely the actual legends who did the talking) and the newer generation fought back but in doing so, went way overboard with the disrespect.

Which old guard are you referring to BS? I mentioned Barkley, Isiah and Rodman in a previous post - but I think they are legends-- Barkley and Thomas definitely are.

 

[Federberg]

No, but I remember having a Converse poster with Magic. I presume Air is about Jordan and Nike?

that is an AWESOME movie mate. I highly highly recommend

 

[britbox]

preach brother! Re: Kareem, I agree. Then as now, most people are able to make a distinction between greatness and good stats. That's not to say that Kareem isn't great. He's possibly the most accomplished player in terms of college and pro career. But the fact is, Kareem had all those stats at a time MJ was only starting to build his, and already everyone acknowledged MJ's greatness. I honestly can't understand how folks can watch Lebron trying to get into his bag to get around even Steph, and seriously call him the best basketball player they've ever seen. It's utterly absurd!

Definitely mate. Kareem is great, Wilt was great, Dr J was great... but MJ was on a different level of great as I'm sure we'd agree.

 

[Federberg]

Which old guard are you referring to BS? I mentioned Barkley, Isiah and Rodman in a previous post - but I think they are legends-- Barkley and Thomas definitely are.

it's a weird thing mate. There are a lot of old heads, mainly role players who criticise the modern game. The funny thing is that most of their opinions are about how the game is played now. It's not really an attack on modern players, but I think, in particular, the LeBron mafia have taken it personally and used it as a weapon to try to diminish the greats of the past. I think we can believe two things, the game right now is filled with a deeper pool of talent than ever before, but the way the game is officiated now is infuriating. When I hear people claim that players now are way more skilful than those in the past, they're right to an extent but not as much as they think. There are a lot of things like travelling and carrying that players today can get away with that wouldn't have happened in the past. Which means that a lot of players are allowed to do things now that make them look more skilful, but the reality is that a lot of them aren't really. There are the truly exceptional guys like Steph and Kyrie that do things that no one else has done before. But guys like SGA and Harden who base their games on exploiting the rules, well... you can call that a skill if you want.. but it's not the skill that gets people to put bums on seats in my opinion.

 

[britbox]

preach brother! Re: Kareem, I agree. Then as now, most people are able to make a distinction between greatness and good stats. That's not to say that Kareem isn't great. He's possibly the most accomplished player in terms of college and pro career. But the fact is, Kareem had all those stats at a time MJ was only starting to build his, and already everyone acknowledged MJ's greatness. I honestly can't understand how folks can watch Lebron trying to get into his bag to get around even Steph, and seriously call him the best basketball player they've ever seen. It's utterly absurd!

That brought me back to the time when Pete Sampras was chasing down majors. It was considered that if Pete overturned Roy Emerson's major count then he would somehow become the GOAT of tennis. The problem is Roy Emerson was never anyone's GOAT in the first place.

 

[britbox]

it's a weird thing mate. There are a lot of old heads, mainly role players who criticise the modern game. The funny thing is that most of their opinions are about how the game is played now. It's not really an attack on modern players, but I think, in particular, the LeBron mafia have taken it personally and used it as a weapon to try to diminish the greats of the past. I think we can believe two things, the game right now is filled with a deeper pool of talent than ever before, but the way the game is officiated now is infuriating. When I hear people claim that players now are way more skilful than those in the past, they're right to an extent but not as much as they think. There are a lot of things like travelling and carrying that players today can get away with that wouldn't have happened in the past. Which means that a lot of players are allowed to do things now that make them look more skilful, but the reality is that a lot of them aren't really. There are the truly exceptional guys like Steph and Kyrie that do things that no one else has done before. But guys like SGA and Harden who base their games on exploiting the rules, well... you can call that a skill if you want.. but it's not the skill that gets people to put bums on seats in my opinion.

That's interesting. I mentioned I haven't followed the sport for 25 years but I did watch a few highlights of GSW in their halcyon days and thought Steph Curry was amazing. The annoyance comes from modern players ridiculing legends of the past. Lebron and Durant didn't do themselves any favours mocking Larry Bird. If you diminish Bird and the Celtics, then you diminish the Showtime Lakers, the Badboy Pistons who usurped them, the Bulls, and every subsequent championship team.

And that is why I don't think Lebron gets the Lakers.... Kobe did. Because if you trash Bird then by implication you trash the Showtime Lakers - Kareem, Magic, Cooper, Worthy et al.