Moxie's Movie Reel

[MargaretMcAleer]

Some of my friends that went and watched Odyssey were not impressed that Nolan cast Matt Damon, a lot of them thought Christian Bale would be a better fit? thoughts anyone

 

[Federberg]

Some of my friends that went and watched Odyssey were not impressed that Nolan cast Matt Damon, a lot of them thought Christian Bale would be a better fit? thoughts anyone

Well.. Bale is a superior actor can we all agree on that? He would certainly have added more gravitas, but I'm not sure that would have been enough to lift the movie to epic status. I honestly don't think Damon was the problem. I really believe the concept itself was the problem. I had no issue with most of the cast and how they acted. Frankly to have so many solid actors in it and ending up with that was a serious underperformance. I think somehow Nolan took depth away from the movie by his interpretation. That was his right of course but there was a cost to that. I don't want to sound like I'm hating on it. To be clear I don't think it was a bad movie, it just wasn't a great movie. I think the hype was way more than justified. In my opinion he's done better movies

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Well.. Bale is a superior actor can we all agree on that? He would certainly have added more gravitas, but I'm not sure that would have been enough to lift the movie to epic status. I honestly don't think Damon was the problem. I really believe the concept itself was the problem. I had no issue with most of the cast and how they acted. Frankly to have so many solid actors in it and ending up with that was a serious underperformance. I think somehow Nolan took depth away from the movie by his interpretation. That was his right of course but there was a cost to that. I don't want to sound like I'm hating on it. To be clear I don't think it was a bad movie, it just wasn't a great movie. I think the hype was way more than justified. In my opinion he's done better movies

I agree with you regarding Damon wasnt the problem, some of my friends thought Bale would be a stronger fit?
The concept was the problem, I thought Damon, Hathaway and Theron played their parts well. I also agree Nolan has done better movies.

 

[Kieran]

I think we saw both of them. We saw Helen, scarred and bitter when Telemachus visits Menelaus. And we see Clytemnestra in a visualised story that Menelaus recounts about how she murders her husband Agamemnon on his return from Troy.

Ah yes, I remember the scarred face!

I think the version I read was by Martin Hammond, the reason I say that is that I know the version of the Iliad I read was by him. I think both had the same translator. And for completeness I read the John Dryden translation of Aeneid.

I’m gonna get a copy of this. I remember about ten years ago reading the Iliad with translations by Pope and Fagles side by side, just to compare, it to see if I was getting everything. But the Pope one, while dramatic, was hampered by the need to rhyme, whereas Fagles was prose-poem and I suspect, much closer to the Greek.

Then my mother died and I abandoned it.

I'm not surprised a true student didn't like Nolan's version, because Nolan's schtick is the tortured guilt filled modern hero. That is rarely a good fit for the original story. The reality is that the film is rarely ever going to compare to the writing. That's been true since the beginning of the movie industry. It's just the way it is

Yeah, I wonder what Nolan will do next. I liked Oppenheimer and I suspect he was going for the biggest goal of all here and there’s been a backlash like he’s never experienced. Even the recommendation to watch it on iMax seems a little desperate and I didn’t feel that watching it on iMax made it feel any grander than if I saw it on a normal cinema screen.

Maybe he’ll downside for his next flick, simplify things, tell a simpler tale..

 

[the AntiPusher]

it's a requirement of the OSCARS criteria these days. If you don't have diversity in your casting you're pretty much toast. It's really sad. It's a complete perversion to my mind. Cast who should be cast. If you're concerned about diversity in a movie that tells a story about a specific race then look behind the scenes, the producers, script writers camera people etc. Don't force this woke bullshit on to us the audience. We just want to be entertained. I don't want some fool who's unlikely to be as educated as me to try to tell me about the way the world should be

Ok. First I havent seen the movie and I am not a big follower of Christopher Nolan's type of storytelling but the Dark Knight trilogy. How many movies have been made over the past 20 years .. maybe 8k.. Yet this one film because of the casting of Helen of Troy is Lupita now we want to say its because of diversity..

I want you @Federberg and MM @MargaretMcAleer because she cosigned your post to show me the diversity in this movie by Chris Nolan.. To date this is his biggest Oscar tally of all his films. So you are saying basically he decided to throw in a royal straight flush for a better poker hand. Why did he feel the need to try to add diversity to his latest film ? Make it make sense. This is not only for the two of you but others have been singing this same tune. I try to stay away from the politics threads on this board because it sickens me that folks will cosign injustice and pure EVIL to support their particular political agenda.

 

[Federberg]

Ok. First I havent seen the movie and I am not a big follower of Christopher Nolan's type of storytelling but the Dark Knight trilogy. How many movies have been made over the past 20 years .. maybe 8k.. Yet this one film because of the casting of Helen of Troy is Lupita now we want to say its because of diversity..

View attachment 11007
I want you @Federberg and MM @MargaretMcAleer because she cosigned your post to show me the diversity in this movie by Chris Nolan.. To date this is his biggest Oscar tally of all his films. So you are saying basically he decided to throw in a royal straight flush for a better poker hand. Why did he feel the need to try to add diversity to his latest film ? Make it make sense. This is not only for the two of you but others have been singing this same tune. I try to stay away from the politics threads on this board because it sickens me that folks will cosign injustice and pure EVIL to support their particular political agenda.

lol! What are you talking about mate? I don't believe @MargaretMcAleer or myself had any issues with the cast. I think we've both been fairly explicit about that. You've stated that you haven't watched the movie yet, but @MargaretMcAleer and I have both done so, and posted our thoughts about it here. If I dare to presume to speak for the both of us, casting wasn't the issue. It was Nolan's interpretation of the Odyssey. So... I have a suggestion for you.. watch the movie, and let us know whether you agree or disagree with us. It's long, it has a good cast, it's an entertaining watch, but doesn't reach the level of what I would call a classic, or an epic. There's something missing. I'm very happy to bolster my opinions with my political view point but frankly it's unnecessary in this case. I actually thought Lupita was good. What was lacking was nothing to do with her. Read the book, watch the movie and feel free to contribute

 

[Jelenafan]

don't call it the Odyssey then...

Every film of another source is an adaptation, if you slavishly try to just paint by the numbers what is the point of that ? Homer borrowed apparently from other sources for HIS adaptation of mythology.

And I’m sorry, but Nolan’s version of Odysseus as a burnt out warrior/soldier isn’t some great leap of faith nor implausible IMO.

When I read both the Illiad and the Odyssey the waste of human lives, hubris, pettiness of the Gods, etc, etc. there is a whole palette of emotions & themes to be explored by others.

There is room for different adaptations.

Liked Kirk Douglas version, like the 90’s tv miniseries ( how can you not like something that has Isabella Rossellini as Athena)

I get it Not everybody’s taste but whatever, there is no definitive version that would please everybody, but it’s as “faithful” an adaptation as any as far as I’m concerned,

 

[Federberg]

Every film of another source is an adaptation, if you slavishly try to just paint by the numbers what is the point of that ? Homer borrowed apparently from other sources for HIS adaptation of mythology.

And I’m sorry, but Nolan’s version of Odysseus as a burnt out warrior/soldier isn’t some great leap of faith nor implausible IMO.

When I read both the Illiad and the Odyssey the waste of human lives, hubris, pettiness of the Gods, etc, etc. there is a whole palette of emotions & themes to be explored by others.

There is room for different adaptations.

Liked Kirk Douglas version, like the 90’s tv miniseries ( how can you not like something that has Isabella Rossellini as Athena)

I get it Not everybody’s taste but whatever, there is no definitive version that would please everybody, but it’s as “faithful” an adaptation as any as far as I’m concerned,

I have no objection to this. But by the same token, any artistic endeavour is rightfully subject to criticism. It's not incumbent on the audience to like it. My point wasn't that he shouldn't have called it Odyssey. I was specifically challenging the notion that Nolan shouldn't be held accountable for his adaptation

 

[Kieran]

View attachment 11007

Now, I would say to this that all these characters in Oppenheimer actually existed, did they? So it completely limits any opportunity for enforced “diversity”, though that probably wouldn’t stop some people. I see there was a version of Amadeus where Mozart was played by an Asian actor. The problem with this is that it’s anachronistic, it breaks the the fourth wall and distracts from the story, as much as if he composed his great music in the show on a Casio.

As well as being highly unnecessary, it’s completely dishonest.

But my problem with the casting in The Odyssey - and I know you didn’t mention me, but this is an interesting and polite discussion - was the casting in general. All the actors were good but the film wasn’t Jason Bourne and The Argonauts. The almost completely American cast - and certainly completely non-Greek cast - was an absolute impediment to me getting immersed in the idea that we’re in the Bronze Age. I wish he’d gone full Mel Gibson and cast locals, speaking in their own tongue, or even in Ancient Greek, and we follow it in subtitles. It would have been more interesting, and if peak Mel Gibson directed it, it would definitely have been more visceral.

I think Nolan made a few major characteristics missteps with this film…

 

[Federberg]

Now, I would say to this that all these characters in Oppenheimer actually existed, did they? So it completely limits any opportunity for enforced “diversity”, though that probably wouldn’t stop some people. I see there was a version of Amadeus where Mozart was played by an Asian actor. The problem with this is that it’s anachronistic, it breaks the the fourth wall and distracts from the story, as much as if he composed his great music in the show on a Casio.

As well as being highly unnecessary, it’s completely dishonest.

But my problem with the casting in The Odyssey - and I know you didn’t mention me, but this is an interesting and polite discussion - was the casting in general. All the actors were good but the film wasn’t Jason Bourne and The Argonauts. The almost completely American cast - and certainly completely non-Greek cast - was an absolute impediment to me getting immersed in the idea that we’re in the Bronze Age. I wish he’d gone full Mel Gibson and cast locals, speaking in their own tongue, or even in Ancient Greek, and we follow it in subtitles. It would have been more interesting, and if peak Mel Gibson directed it, it would definitely have been more visceral.

I think Nolan made a few major characteristics missteps with this film…

apparently Elon Musk has offered to fund a Mel Gibson version of it. I for one would run to the cinema to watch that. The Passion of Christ and Apocalypto were insanely good to me

 

[Kieran]

apparently Elon Musk has offered to fund a Mel Gibson version of it. I for one would run to the cinema to watch that. The Passion of Christ and Apocalypto were insanely good to me

Oh yeah, they were cinema at its most fierce and intense and actually risky and honest too. Beautiful, as well.

For a while I couldn’t watch any other great films without thinking the filmmaker was a fraud compared to Gibson. I know that’s excessive but they really struck a chord. He’s taken a huge risk making two sequels to The Passion, concurrently. They’re both in post-production, scheduled for 2027 and 2028.

 

[Federberg]

Oh yeah, they were cinema at its most fierce and intense and actually risky and honest too. Beautiful, as well.

For a while I couldn’t watch any other great films without thinking the filmmaker was a fraud compared to Gibson. I know that’s excessive but they really struck a chord. He’s taken a huge risk making two sequels to The Passion, concurrently. They’re both in post-production, scheduled for 2027 and 2028.

oh wow! I'll definitely have to watch those. I'm aware of Gibson's faults, but talent is talent. He's one of those guys that if I hear he's directing a movie I'm going to watch it. Same with Tarantino and Eastwood

 

[Kieran]

oh wow! I'll definitely have to watch those. I'm aware of Gibson's faults, but talent is talent. He's one of those guys that if I hear he's directing a movie I'm going to watch it. Same with Tarantino and Eastwood

Yeah I remember watching some Hollywood reporter round table discussion with actors and directors and Mel seemed so exact and expert in everything he wanted to say about setting up his shots and preparing actors, so much wise purpose in everything he was doing.

Tarantino, by the way, I don’t get it why he’s retiring after ten films. I’d love to see him have the enthusiasm and ideas for later in life too, different types of films. He’s stopping too early for me. I watched Richard Jewell the other night, directed by Clint, a magnificent film..

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Yeah I remember watching some Hollywood reporter round table discussion with actors and directors and Mel seemed so exact and expert in everything he wanted to say about setting up his shots and preparing actors, so much wise purpose in everything he was doing.

Tarantino, by the way, I don’t get it why he’s retiring after ten films. I’d love to see him have the enthusiasm and ideas for later in life too, different types of films. He’s stopping too early for me. I watched Richard Jewell the other night, directed by Clint, a magnificent film..

Kieran,

I recently read that Tarantino imposed a 10 film self imposed career limit, aiming to leave behind a pristine filmography rather than facing a decline in quality, he also believes directors do not improve as they age.

 

[Kieran]

Kieran,

I recently read that Tarantino imposed a 10 film self imposed career limit, aiming to leave behind a pristine filmography rather than facing a decline in quality, he also believes directors do not improve as they age.

Mmmm. He’s been great at doing “Tarantinoesque” movies but Death Proof isn’t pristine. Some of his films are great but not in the way The Conversation is great, for instance. There’s rarely suspense in a Tarantino film, I’m never moved by them, the way I was moved by Blue Jasmine by another great writer-director. If I want a great western, I’m not going for Django, I’ll watch Unforgiven. If I want gangsters, I’m going Scorsese.

And I love QT, but I think of his films as entertainment, but no real depth. This is why I’d love to see seventy year old Tarantino show another side of his talent. I think he’s only getting going. Once upon a Time in Hollywood was brilliant!

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Mmmm. He’s been great at doing “Tarantinoesque” movies but Death Proof isn’t pristine. Some of his films are great but not in the way The Conversation is great, for instance. There’s rarely suspense in a Tarantino film, I’m never moved by them, the way I was moved by Blue Jasmine by another great writer-director. If I want a great western, I’m not going for Django, I’ll watch Unforgiven. If I want gangsters, I’m going Scorsese.

And I love QT, but I think of his films as entertainment, but no real depth. This is why I’d love to see seventy year old Tarantino show another side of his talent. I think he’s only getting going. Once upon a Time in Hollywood was brilliant!

Maybe he might change his mind down the track, I mean 63 isnt old for goodness sakes he is writing screen plays for other directors,also theatre.
I loved Once Upon A Time In Hollywood, I have it in my movie collection and have watched it about 3 times already,

 

[Kieran]

Maybe he might change his mind down the track, I mean 63 isnt old for goodness sakes he is writing screen plays for other directors,also theatre.
I loved Once Upon A Time In Hollywood, I have it in my movie collection and have watched it about 3 times already,

It’s fantastic. I mean with Tarantino we have to make space for the cartoon violence in every film at the end, sometimes it’s funny, but that was a really great film, and I’m sure you know he wrote the spin off for David Fincher to direct:

 

[britbox]

Mmmm. He’s been great at doing “Tarantinoesque” movies but Death Proof isn’t pristine. Some of his films are great but not in the way The Conversation is great, for instance. There’s rarely suspense in a Tarantino film, I’m never moved by them, the way I was moved by Blue Jasmine by another great writer-director. If I want a great western, I’m not going for Django, I’ll watch Unforgiven. If I want gangsters, I’m going Scorsese.

And I love QT, but I think of his films as entertainment, but no real depth. This is why I’d love to see seventy year old Tarantino show another side of his talent. I think he’s only getting going. Once upon a Time in Hollywood was brilliant!

Would you class From Dusk till Dawn a Tarantino film? He was in it and wrote the screenplay but didn't direct.

 

[Kieran]

Would you class From Dusk till Dawn a Tarantino film? He was in it and wrote the screenplay but didn't direct.

It was a great script, I love that film, especially the first scene, it’s classic Tarantino. I don’t think he counts it but it feels to me like it’s a Tarantino flick.

 

[Jelenafan]

Now, I would say to this that all these characters in Oppenheimer actually existed, did they? So it completely limits any opportunity for enforced “diversity”, though that probably wouldn’t stop some people. I see there was a version of Amadeus where Mozart was played by an Asian actor. The problem with this is that it’s anachronistic, it breaks the the fourth wall and distracts from the story, as much as if he composed his great music in the show on a Casio.

As well as being highly unnecessary, it’s completely dishonest.

But my problem with the casting in The Odyssey - and I know you didn’t mention me, but this is an interesting and polite discussion - was the casting in general. All the actors were good but the film wasn’t Jason Bourne and The Argonauts. The almost completely American cast - and certainly completely non-Greek cast - was an absolute impediment to me getting immersed in the idea that we’re in the Bronze Age. I wish he’d gone full Mel Gibson and cast locals, speaking in their own tongue, or even in Ancient Greek, and we follow it in subtitles. It would have been more interesting, and if peak Mel Gibson directed it, it would definitely have been more visceral.

I think Nolan made a few major characteristics missteps with this film…

Casting is one of those things where I give directors the BOD per their vision. A casting is something I decide on upon seeing the final product. Way too much politically obsessed viewers screaming “it’s Woke! It’s woke!!” When a non White is cast in a role. It’s almost comical to me.

For “Amadeus” does anyone reallly think the play is more than a highly imaginary & fictional picture of Mozart & Salieri ( 2 real life figures). I mean to me the greater themes of “Amadeus” is Salieri’s spite toward God for gifting a young, brash & uncultured punk with the greatest musical gifts as a sort of cosmic joke. In THAT context, why not have an Asian in the role? Younger generations who are used to ethnicity in all walks of life won’t give a crap and it fits IMO the true themes & visions of the play. ( how many people suspended belief in having white actors play ethnic roles in the past?) But of course we all decide for ourselves.

On the other hand, what is accurate casting per intent? , in Shaespeare’s time women were prohibited from being on stage so all the great women roles he wrote (Juliet, Viola, Lady Macbeth, were played by men, would we say his intent & vision did not come through because a different gender literally played those roles in his lifetime?

Or the fact that a Black actor first portrayed Othello 250 years after the play was initially staged. Did Shakespeare even envision a non white actor as the Moorsman? One could argue he never intended a black actor to ever play the role. Despite the theme of Othello as an outsider in a world where he never will be totally accepted. So is it so so horrible that Black actors play the role despite the possible preconceptions of the original writer?

Again talking about accuracy in casting is a very tricky subject.

IMO