Ferrer and the notion of the "late peak"

[Moxie]

Kskate asked me not to disrupt other threads to talk about Ferrer, but to start another one, so I will.

Some posters have been astonished at Ferrer's post age-30 performance. I think there is a basic misunderstanding about the trajectory of Ferrer's career. Herios and Darth disagreed with me that Ferrer had 2 peak times.
http://www.tennisfrontier.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=4069&pid=193769#pid193769

I agree that the 2nd one has been longer and stronger, but I have made the argument that it comes with maturity. Those that are looking at David at 29-30 are forgetting who he was at age 25. He did reach #4 in the world at age 25. That's not nothing. He was out of the Top 5 for 2 years, wandering around in the teens, mostly not lower, spending only 4 weeks below #20. That's not especially shocking for a top player.

I've already made the argument for the other things he'd done by age 25. Like making the finals of the YEC v. Fed. and USO QF.

Ferrer has always been very fit. This is a point that Darth, in particular wants to dispute. Ferrer was with Javier Piles from his junior days, and Piles is a marathoner. He pushed David hard since he was a kid. The notion that Ferrer runs like a rabbit, or is the energizer bunny comes from his marathon runner coach, Piles, who made him run miles, always. Piles has stopped being his coach in the last few years. If anything, the change is that he no longer has the coach that made him run.

 

[DarthFed]

Kskate asked me not to disrupt other threads to talk about Ferrer, but to start another one, so I will.

Some posters have been astonished at Ferrer's post age-30 performance. I think there is a basic misunderstanding about the trajectory of Ferrer's career. Herios and Darth disagreed with me that Ferrer had 2 peak times.
http://www.tennisfrontier.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=4069&pid=193769#pid193769

I agree that the 2nd one has been longer and stronger, but I have made the argument that it comes with maturity. Those that are looking at David at 29-30 are forgetting who he was at age 25. He did reach #4 in the world at age 25. That's not nothing. He was out of the Top 5 for 2 years, wandering around in the teens, mostly not lower, spending only 4 weeks below #20. That's not especially shocking for a top player.

I've already made the argument for the other things he'd done by age 25. Like making the finals of the YEC v. Fed. and USO QF.

Ferrer has always been very fit. This is a point that Darth, in particular wants to dispute. Ferrer was with Javier Piles from his junior days, and Piles is a marathoner. He pushed David hard since he was a kid. The notion that Ferrer runs like a rabbit, or is the energizer bunny comes from his marathon runner coach, Piles, who made him run miles, always. Piles has stopped being his coach in the last few years. If anything, the change is that he no longer has the coach that made him run.

I never disputed that Ferrer was always fit. I just think he is more physically fit now than he was in his mid 20's. I'm not just talking endurance but the whole package; strength, athleticism and endurance. I think he is just as fast as he was, has similar if not greater endurance and he definitely has more power.

 

[Moxie]

Kskate asked me not to disrupt other threads to talk about Ferrer, but to start another one, so I will.

Some posters have been astonished at Ferrer's post age-30 performance. I think there is a basic misunderstanding about the trajectory of Ferrer's career. Herios and Darth disagreed with me that Ferrer had 2 peak times.
http://www.tennisfrontier.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=4069&pid=193769#pid193769

I agree that the 2nd one has been longer and stronger, but I have made the argument that it comes with maturity. Those that are looking at David at 29-30 are forgetting who he was at age 25. He did reach #4 in the world at age 25. That's not nothing. He was out of the Top 5 for 2 years, wandering around in the teens, mostly not lower, spending only 4 weeks below #20. That's not especially shocking for a top player.

I've already made the argument for the other things he'd done by age 25. Like making the finals of the YEC v. Fed. and USO QF.

Ferrer has always been very fit. This is a point that Darth, in particular wants to dispute. Ferrer was with Javier Piles from his junior days, and Piles is a marathoner. He pushed David hard since he was a kid. The notion that Ferrer runs like a rabbit, or is the energizer bunny comes from his marathon runner coach, Piles, who made him run miles, always. Piles has stopped being his coach in the last few years. If anything, the change is that he no longer has the coach that made him run.

I never disputed that Ferrer was always fit. I just think he is more physically fit now than he was in his mid 20's. I'm not just talking endurance but the whole package; strength, athleticism and endurance. I think he is just as fast as he was, has similar if not greater endurance and he definitely has more power.

"Ferrer is flat out better and even more physically fit in his 30's than he was in his 20's. It is shocking to say the least. I can't think of anyone else even close to it that I've seen since I started watching tennis." This is what you said. Which is different than your tepid version above.

What is different from Ferrer getting more fit than any number of players working to be more so, as they get older? You agree that he always had the speed. And that endurance was similar. That leaves power. I'd be interested in your examples of how much power he has now that he didn't have at 25.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Ferrer has played better tennis late in his career than he did in his supposed physical peak, but from a physical perspective, he was always among the fittest guys on tour and it's not anything he acquired or improved in his 30's. Nevertheless, simply being able to maintain that level of fitness in his 30's is amazing.

But yeah, the narrative that he turned into a physical freak late is wrong, and of course, the claim that he wasn't a physical freak earlier in his career, like someone suggested in a different thread, is ludicrous.

 

[herios]

Here is a current late bloomer example: Feliciano Lopez

His ranking history:

when 20y old he was ranked 206
at 23y ranked 29 and he pushes up at this age as high as ranked 20
at 25y ranked 80
27y ranked 37
30y ranked 28.

He finally breaks into the top 20 at 30 and will go up to 15 at 30y and 7 months, falling back to as low as 48 when 31 and finally peaks as ranked 12 at 33y and 6 months.

In conclusion, Deliciano had his best ranking days when 30+y old. As a teenager, he was never a promising talent, from a ranking point of view, but he persevered and although he had an early peak at 23, his best days came so much later.

 

[DarthFed]

Kskate asked me not to disrupt other threads to talk about Ferrer, but to start another one, so I will.

Some posters have been astonished at Ferrer's post age-30 performance. I think there is a basic misunderstanding about the trajectory of Ferrer's career. Herios and Darth disagreed with me that Ferrer had 2 peak times.
http://www.tennisfrontier.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=4069&pid=193769#pid193769

I agree that the 2nd one has been longer and stronger, but I have made the argument that it comes with maturity. Those that are looking at David at 29-30 are forgetting who he was at age 25. He did reach #4 in the world at age 25. That's not nothing. He was out of the Top 5 for 2 years, wandering around in the teens, mostly not lower, spending only 4 weeks below #20. That's not especially shocking for a top player.

I've already made the argument for the other things he'd done by age 25. Like making the finals of the YEC v. Fed. and USO QF.

Ferrer has always been very fit. This is a point that Darth, in particular wants to dispute. Ferrer was with Javier Piles from his junior days, and Piles is a marathoner. He pushed David hard since he was a kid. The notion that Ferrer runs like a rabbit, or is the energizer bunny comes from his marathon runner coach, Piles, who made him run miles, always. Piles has stopped being his coach in the last few years. If anything, the change is that he no longer has the coach that made him run.

I never disputed that Ferrer was always fit. I just think he is more physically fit now than he was in his mid 20's. I'm not just talking endurance but the whole package; strength, athleticism and endurance. I think he is just as fast as he was, has similar if not greater endurance and he definitely has more power.

"Ferrer is flat out better and even more physically fit in his 30's than he was in his 20's. It is shocking to say the least. I can't think of anyone else even close to it that I've seen since I started watching tennis." This is what you said. Which is different than your tepid version above.

What is different from Ferrer getting more fit than any number of players working to be more so, as they get older? You agree that he always had the speed. And that endurance was similar. That leaves power. I'd be interested in your examples of how much power he has now that he didn't have at 25.

How is it different than what I said in this thread? I never said Ferrer wasn't very fit in his 20's. I just think he is all around more fit now (again mostly due to added power). As for examples...just the eye test. He hits bigger now. I sincerely hope you're not asking for a link to a study on Ferrer's average groundstroke speed at age 25 vs. now...

 

[El Dude]

It is an interesting historical anomaly. Hand-eye coordination doesn't substantially go down in your 30s--I read somewhere that it doesn't really start going down until after around 40--but what becomes more difficult is recovery time (remember hangovers in your 20s? Not so bad ). Aches and pains increase, etc. I think players can maintain an equivalent level of play into their 30s if they are willing to do the work AND they can avoid the injury bug.

But what makes Ferrer unusual is not that he's just as good at 30-33 as he was 25, but that he's BETTER. That is rare. The only great player of the Open Era that was better later on in his career was Agassi, but even then his best year was 1999 when he was 28-29. His early 30s were very good but not necessarily better than earlier on. Rod Laver had his great 1969 year at age 30-31, but he wasn't necessarily better than he had been the six or seven years previously. Plus it was such a different game and players were good much later.

The game got far more physical and powerful in the mid-70s with Connors and Borg. Levels of fitness increased. By the 1980s you had players reaching a high level quite young and peaking in their early to mid 20s. Think of Wilander, Edberg, Becker, even Sampras - all were at their best around 22-26. Fast forward a few years and Federer was the same, as was Nadal, whose peak was probably 2008-13 when he was 21-27.

And then we have two players, David Ferrer and Stan Wawrinka, who are peaking quite late. Ferrer reached a high level in his mid-20s and has basically maintained it, except for a couple years where he dropped a bit, and then rose again and peaked in 2012-13 at age 30-32. Stan rose steeply in 2013 when he turned 28 and has been peaking since, from age 28-30+.

Novak Djokovic and Andy Murray are both 28 and as good as ever. How long will this last?

It has been noted just how many 30+ year olds are in the top 100. Right now there are 3 in the top 10, 8 in the top 20, and 17 in the top 50. Compare that to 10 years ago when there was 1 in the top 10, 2 in the top 20, and 6 in the top 50.

What may be especially remarkable is how many 33+ year olds are still relevant: Federer and Ferrer in the top 10, Lopez and Robredo in the top 20, Karlovic, Estrella Burgos and Benneteau in the top 50. Ten years ago there was only Agassi at #7 and then Wayne Arthurs at #97. 20 years ago, the top ranked 33+ year old was Anders Jarryd at #124. Going back 30 years ago to 1985 and you have more: Connors at #4, and then a few more in the top 100 (Vilas, Gullikson, and Fibak). So maybe the tour got especially young in the late 80s to early 00s, and then centralized more in the mid to late 00s and now has spread out again.

Some of this just fluctuates over time. A couple years ago there were no teenagers in the top 100, now there are 4. In other words, the tour might be aging as a whole, but there is a younger contingent coming up - so it might be generational and in waves.

Maybe we're in uncharted territory? Maybe fitness levels have improved and we're going to see mor

 

[Front242]

I laughed when I watched this. According to Sebastian Grosjean and Jon Wertheim the biggest change in the last 10 years is the speed and power. Well, people have been fast for years and fair enough, racquet technology has improved but going back to speed...apparently the athletes have better speed, agility, fitness and strength these days. A sign of the times we live in I guess sadly because it's not like players didn't train just as hard before. :nono

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un6kIwoSSdM[/video]

 

[Moxie]

I laughed when I watched this. According to Sebastian Grosjean and Jon Wertheim the biggest change in the last 10 years is the speed and power. Well, people have been fast for years and fair enough, racquet technology has improved but going back to speed...apparently the athletes have better speed, agility, fitness and strength these days. A sign of the times we live in I guess sadly because it's not like players didn't train just as hard before. :nono

I'm not clear what made you laugh about this. When you say that "it's not like players didn't train just as hard before," I guess it depends on "before what?" 10 years ago? I think it's exactly like that. Since the rise of Roger, then Rafa, a lot of players figured out they had better get more fit to compete. Before that, the likes of Safin and Nalbandian relied much more on their "gifts," and allowed themselves to be distracted by other things rather than train hard. Ferrer is one who trained hard and took a serious attitude towards his job (with marathoner Piles, he ran a lot of distance, which is a source of his stamina and leg strength.) And before Gil Reyes (with Agassi,) almost nobody worked that hard off the court.

 

[brokenshoelace]

I laughed when I watched this. According to Sebastian Grosjean and Jon Wertheim the biggest change in the last 10 years is the speed and power. Well, people have been fast for years and fair enough, racquet technology has improved but going back to speed...apparently the athletes have better speed, agility, fitness and strength these days. A sign of the times we live in I guess sadly because it's not like players didn't train just as hard before. :nono

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un6kIwoSSdM[/video]

Can you make a single post without PED implications?

First of all, the post above is flat out ignorant, and I'm someone who actually believes PED's are rampant.

Yes, athletes always trained hard in the past 30 years or so, but do you really not think that as science evolved, athletes are much smarter and knowledgeable about how to train, what to eat, when to train, when to peak, focusing on specific aspects of training, etc...? We also know a lot more about diets, supplements (legal), etc...

I mean, how can anyone be so consumed by an idea as to miss the most basic of things?

(In before "not once did I mention PED's" despite the fact that the post would make no sense unless that was the implication).

 

[Moxie]

^ Well, at least we got the elephant out of the room